[Sca-cooks] Marrow (Long)

[Terry Decker]

> Yes, the marrow in question should without doubt
> have been that of bone marrow for the recipes
> that were under discussion. Several people had
> responded on the list already that it was bone
> marrow, prior to my posting.
> In my posting, I was just answering the second
> part of the query regarding what a vegetable
> marrow is vis a vis a zuchini in the modern world.
> Yes, of course, modern zucchini or vegetable marrows
> post WWII are new world squashes of the same
> family as pumpkins.
>
>
> As to when they were first used in the UK, and their
> nomenclature in the OED, I did some further checking.
> Gillian Riley uses the terms "Marrows (zucchini)"
> in her translation of Giacomo Castelvetro's manuscript
> from the early 17th century. (He died in 1616, so the
> mss. dates from between 1614-1616.). Not knowing what
> terms were used in the original Italian text, it's hard to
> say whether Riley used the modern term "marrow" for zucchini
> or used "marrow and "zucchini" when the original term was
> say courgettes. If in fact, Castelvetro was talking about
> growing zucchini or marrow (cucurbita pepo) then this
> would put them into gardens and use shortly after the
> 1600 cutoff. Riley on page 160 indicates that Castelvetro
> meant the lagenaria family in the entry on "pumpkins."
> If this applies also to the entry on "marrows" on page
> 96, then why use the terms "marrows" and "zucchini" when
> the plant being discussed was an old world gourd?
> See The Fruit, Herbs and Vegetables of Italy for this problem.

"Courgette" is used to describe both gourds and squashes.  The same problem
occurs in French.  Prior to 1492, it is almost certain that gourds are being
referenced and by 1700 the common usage is for squash, if I understand the
usage correctly.
New World squashes were being grown and sold in Italy by the latter half of
the 16th Century.  These are identifiable in various paintings from the
ribbed stalk.  Gourds and melons have unribbed stalks.

Gillian Riley could correctly use either gourds or squashes, but unless
there are other indicators in Castelvetro's work, it may not be possible to
determine precisely which he meant.  Squashes appear to have supplanted
gourds in the cooking with little change in the immediate recipes.
Renaissance Recipes is not particularly scholarly and does not provide
translation information suggesting that the translations were not done by a
classicist with an eye to the precision of the language.

>
> C. Anne Wilson in Food and Drink in Britain
> also says "Cucumbers, marrows, garden
> asparagus and cardoons (a form of globe artichoke) may have
> been grown in Britain's villa gardens, but they were too
> tender to survive the end of the Roman occupation. (326)
> On page 327, she says "Apicius has several recipes for
> vegetable marrows, boiled, fried or mashed..."
> This would indicate to me that the term "marrow" and
> in the case of Wilson "vegetable marrow " is also
> being used for the old world gourd used in Roman recipes.
> And indeed, the Flower and Rosenbaum edition of Apicius under
> the title The Roman Cookery Book (originally published
> in England in 1958) uses the term "Marrow" for the Latin
> "Cucurbitas" on pp.74-75. This leads one to conclude that
> the same words indicate not one but two, (possibly even three plants
> if one includes the Marrow kale as given below)
> totally different plants.

Below, the OED gives the definition of marrow as "A kind of gourd, the fruit
of Cucurbita ovifera, used as a table vegetable."  The OED is saying gourd,
marrow, and squash are synonyms.  Scientifically, geographically (origin)
and temporally, they are not.  Wilson and Flower and Rosenbaum are being
imprecise by not translating to taxonomic terms.

"Cucurbita ovifera" is more correctly Cucurbita pepo var. ovifera.  It
refers specifically to a group of New World ornamentals which Apicius would
never have seen.

The Latin word "curcubita" means "gourd."  In Apicius' time it would have
referred to members of genus Langenaria or the bottle gourds.  IIRC, the
Tacuinum Sanitatis shows "cucurbita" which are specifically Langenaria.

The taxonomic Cucurbita does not equate to the Latin "cucurbita."  Basic
taxonomy was established between the 16th and 18th Centuries and while
taxonomy uses Greek and Latin names, they follow the conventions established
by the taxonomists rather than the conventions of the language.  In relation
to gourds, pumpkins, squashes, etc., the family is the gourd family or
Cucurbitaceae, while the genus for New World squashes and pumpkins is
Cucurbita.

>
> Even the OED 2nd online which I have access to gives an
> 2 odd entries as follows:
>
> "marrow-stemmed kale. 1598 Sylvester Du Bartas
> ii. i. i. Eden 537 Their *marrow-boyling loves."

Brassica oleracea var. medulla (IIRC).  This particular cabbage has a stalk
with a soft pith which is removed and cooked, I hear stir fry is nice.
Cabbage is easily modifiable and I haven't tried to chase down the age of
this varietal.  I don't recall any early references so it may be a variety
developed in the 16th Century.

>
> Under marrow one finds as Bear quoted the 1816 date & quote:
> " vegetable marrow:
> a. A kind of gourd, the fruit of Cucurbita ovifera,
> used as a table vegetable.
> 1816 J. Sabine in Trans. Hort. Soc. (1822) II. 255
> (title of paper) A Description and Account of the Cultivation of a
> Variety of Gourd called Vegetable Marrow."
>
> So is OED talking about a "gourd" or a "squash"?
> If it's just a squash, why the reference to gourd at all?
> Or does OED intermingle squash with gourd and gourd with squash?

Curcubitacea or gourd family.  All members can be referred to as gourds or
cucurbits, but the usage is confusing scientifically.  Genus and species are
more precise.

Squash specifically refers to members of genus Cucurbita.  The word derives
from the Narragansett "askutasquash."

>
> The Middle English Dictionary also
> gives this as one of the definitions for "marrow"
> (a) The kernel or meat of a nut, seed, grain, or fruit;
> the soft inner part of bread contained by the crust, crumb;
> ~ of whete, heart of wheat, fine flour; (b) the heart
> of a tree; also, tender growing shoots of a tree. The quotes
> refer mostly to marrow of wheat.
>
> (I did check the Florilegium entries on marrow and note that
> Bear brought up this nomenclature question back in 1998.)

Yes, and I've spent a lot of time looking at the issue

>
> Having not seen the original recipes being discussed,
> is it beyond the realm of possibility that the mention of
> "marrow" in pre-1600 recipes might have been "marrow kale",
> the old world gourd being called a marrow or more likely
> "bone marrow"?
> If it is a translated recipe and an English author ...?????
>
> Johnna Holloway Johnnae llyn Lewis

And just to throw a monkey wrench in the works about the Cucurbita, there is
a botanical argument that at least some of the Cucurbita may have originated
in Asia.  Since it appears to be tied in with some of the diffusionist
arguments I take it with a grain of salt.  As far as I can tell, there is
still no evidence that the Cucurbita were known in Europe before Columbus.

Bear

>
> Terry Decker wrote:>
> > The problem is genus Cucurbita is of New World origin. The
> Cucurbita
> > replaced the Langenaria, or bottle gourds, on European
> tables beginning in
> > the 16th Century.>
> > The OED places the first use of marrow as referring to a
> cucurbit in 1816.
> > Thus pre-17th Century cooking references to marrow are
> almost certainly
> > referring to bone marrow.> Bear
> >
> > >Yes, British vegetable marrows are part of the
> > >marrow/zuchini group of Summer squashes or
> > >cucurbita pepo. Alan Davidson notes that the
> > >British have for some time taken to growing them
> > >to extreme sizes and dimensions for contests and
> > >exhibitions.Johnnae llyn Lewis Johnna Holloway
> > >
> > >Linda Peterson wrote:
> > >> We're discussing marrow and it's use in puddings and
> rissoles. I think
> > >> it's refering to bone marrow, but someone suggests
> squash. Can anyone
> > >> expound on which is most likely and if the brittish
> vegetable marrow is
> > >> really what we think of here as an overgrown zuchinni? Mirhaxa