[Sca-cooks] Marrow (Long)

[johnna holloway]

Terry Decker wrote: just his comments response are reprinted

> "Courgette" is used to describe both gourds and squashes.  The same problem
> occurs in French.  Prior to 1492, it is almost certain that gourds are being
> referenced and by 1700 the common usage is for squash, if I understand the
> usage correctly.
> New World squashes were being grown and sold in Italy by the latter half of
> the 16th Century.  These are identifiable in various paintings from the
> ribbed stalk.  Gourds and melons have unribbed stalks.
>
> Gillian Riley could correctly use either gourds or squashes, but unless
> there are other indicators in Castelvetro's work, it may not be possible to
> determine precisely which he meant.  Squashes appear to have supplanted
> gourds in the cooking with little change in the immediate recipes.
> Renaissance Recipes is not particularly scholarly and does not provide
> translation information suggesting that the translations were not done by a
> classicist with an eye to the precision of the language.

> Below, the OED gives the definition of marrow as "A kind of gourd, the fruit
> of Cucurbita ovifera, used as a table vegetable."  The OED is saying gourd,
> marrow, and squash are synonyms.  Scientifically, geographically (origin)
> and temporally, they are not.  Wilson and Flower and Rosenbaum are being
> imprecise by not translating to taxonomic terms.
>
> "Cucurbita ovifera" is more correctly Cucurbita pepo var. ovifera.  It
> refers specifically to a group of New World ornamentals which Apicius would
> never have seen.

> Below, the OED gives the definition of marrow as "A kind of gourd, the fruit
> of Cucurbita ovifera, used as a table vegetable."  The OED is saying gourd,
> marrow, and squash are synonyms.  Scientifically, geographically (origin)
> and temporally, they are not.  Wilson and Flower and Rosenbaum are being
> imprecise by not translating to taxonomic terms.
>>
> The Latin word "curcubita" means "gourd."  In Apicius' time it would have
> referred to members of genus Langenaria or the bottle gourds.  IIRC, the
> Tacuinum Sanitatis shows "cucurbita" which are specifically Langenaria.
>
> The taxonomic Cucurbita does not equate to the Latin "cucurbita."  Basic
> taxonomy was established between the 16th and 18th Centuries and while
> taxonomy uses Greek and Latin names, they follow the conventions established
> by the taxonomists rather than the conventions of the language.  In relation
> to gourds, pumpkins, squashes, etc., the family is the gourd family or
> Cucurbitaceae, while the genus for New World squashes and pumpkins is
> Cucurbita.
>
> Brassica oleracea var. medulla (IIRC).  This particular cabbage has a stalk
> with a soft pith which is removed and cooked, I hear stir fry is nice.
> Cabbage is easily modifiable and I haven't tried to chase down the age of
> this varietal.  I don't recall any early references so it may be a variety
> developed in the 16th Century.
> Curcubitacea or gourd family.  All members can be referred to as gourds or
> cucurbits, but the usage is confusing scientifically.  Genus and species are
> more precise.
> Squash specifically refers to members of genus Cucurbita.  The word derives
> from the Narragansett "askutasquash."
> Yes, and I've spent a lot of time looking at the issue
>
> And just to throw a monkey wrench in the works about the Cucurbita, there is
> a botanical argument that at least some of the Cucurbita may have originated
> in Asia.  Since it appears to be tied in with some of the diffusionist
> arguments I take it with a grain of salt.  As far as I can tell, there is
> still no evidence that the Cucurbita were known in Europe before Columbus.
>
> Bear
>
Here's yet some more to confuse and totally bemuse the readers of the
list.


Gillian Riley here was translating the Castelvetro work. It is published
as  The Fruit, Herbs and Vegetables of Italy. This is not Renaissance
Recipes.
The question still remains was Riley using a British affectation for
the imprecise term of marrow ( meaning old world gourd) or was
she actually using a term meaning the new world squash? (I suppose that
if we want to really know we are going to have to write and ask.) If
the New World squashes were available in Italy before the time of
Castelvetro, what would be the earliest identified recipe that can be
linked to the new world vegetable and not the old world gourds???
It could be that no one has taken the time to sort them out.

Another major question has to be when did British Food historians start
using marrow for the Apicius cucurbita and when did "marrow" start
to mean vegetable marrow which at least after WWII is a special variety
of zucchini? And why did they translate the Latin over as marrow and not
gourd??? It could be that the new edition of Apicius that is due out
from
Prospect Books will help to nail this point down.

Certainly Wilson, Flower
and Rosenbaum are more correct in their terminology than Giacosa's
A Taste of Ancient Rome where on page 13 we are told that Roman
vegetables
included "squash." (p.13) Page 139 translates part of Martial under:
"Squash. Caecilius, the Atreus of squash, slices and cuts them into a
thousand pieces." Page 148 gets around to indicating that Squash
Alexandrian Style (Apicius 75) is really Cucurbitas more Alexandrino.
So here again we have the Latin Cucurbitas only this time it's not
translated as marrow but as "Squash".
Vehling translates Cucurbitas
as  "Pumpkin, squash" in his Apicius of 1936.
John Edwards in The Roman
Cookery of Apicius on page 36 manages to cover all bases by stating
under "Gourds. Apicius used the word "cucurbita" for this division of
his recipes for garden vegetables and, indeed, many fruits of the order
curbitaceae are delicious when prepared classically. This would include
gourd, pumpkin, squash, zucchini, or vegetable marrow."
He translates the recipe as "stewed gourds" and then he then lists
gourd, squash, zucchini and pumpkin  for the modern recipe.

Cucurbita ovifera is today Cucurbita pepo var. ovifera, but when was
that
determined. As I understand it, there are still discussions going on
regarding
which botanical group which variety of new world squash belongs to.
 And as they cross-pollinate
freely if planted in the same patch, that only adds to the confusion.
When OED was published did Cucurbita ovifera refer to Cucurbita pepo
var. ovifera
or has this changed in the past 90 years?

I have to wonder about the Asia as a source having to do with the
discovery of
gourds being both old world and then turning up thousands of
years later in Mexico, but well prior to the voyages of discovery.

> > Johnna Holloway Johnnae llyn Lewis