Seder, was Re: [Sca-cooks] FW:request for recipe(s)

[Pixel, Goddess and Queen]

>
> > Before Avraham gets to it... ;-)
> >
> > One of the Four Questions is, more or less, "On
> > other nights we don't even
> > dip once. Why tonight do we dip twice?" Now, before
> > people get really
> > confused, remember that Jesus said that his betrayer
> > would be the person
> > who dipped at the same time that he did [Matthew
> > 26:23].
>
> OK, exactly what is dipping? Ceremonial dipping of
> bread into wine? And why and how would this be a
> symbolic act, at least for the Jews?
>

Of course, now that I'm re-reading things (bible.gospelcom.net, the bible
in a zillion languages and translations) Avraham is going to laugh at me
because I remembered it wrong.

Matthew and John are specific that it is bread, but Mark (which is
thought to be the oldest of the four books) and Luke don't say what is
being dipped. Anyway. On the Seder plate are several pieces of matzoh,
which are broken and the pieces handed out, after you say the blessing
over the bread. The blessing is basically a saying of thanks for the
bread. The dipping tradition these days is green herbs in salt water
(green for spring, salt water for tears) but that is clearly not what is
being talked about.

Matzoh is very dry, and neither of the traditions associated with charoset
and bitter herbs had been instituted yet (both medieval, I believe) so
they would have been eating it by itself. If I had to eat plain matzoh,
I'd dip it in my wine, too.

The traditions in question are eating charoset and bitter herbs (usually
horseradish) mixed together on matzoh, and then together between two
pieces of matzoh as a sandwich.

Incidentally, charoset isn't as tasty made with dry wine. I've made it
with white wine, with dry red wine, with sweet red wine, and with the
cough syrup that you can buy in Manischewitz bottles. Believe it or not,
it's best with the cough syrup.  Me, I can't stomach even one cup, let
alone four, of that stuff, so I usually lobby for something drinkable at
least for me. But the sweet charoset combines really nicely with the sharp
horseradish. Mmmmmm. One of my favorite parts of the Seder.

The ritual things you need for a Seder: several pieces of matzoh, the
unleavened bread; four cups of wine; charoset to symbolize mortar; bitter
herbs, usually horseradish; green herbs for spring; a roasted something to
symbolize the sacrifice, usually a roasted bone although vegetarians can
use a roasted beet; a hardboiled egg, again for spring, I think; salt
water, for the tears of affliction. Those all go on the plate (and you can
find very nice specialty Seder plates with sections for each item).

And while I'm wandering on the subject, the ritual blessings are
interesting in what they are and aren't for. Wine and bread have their own
special blessings separate from everything else.


> I mean, my usual bedtime ritual lately is a couple of
> chocolate chip cookies dipped in a cup of milk, and
> frequently I'll do the same with coffee, but there's
> no significance to the act beyond the fact that I like
> coffee or milk flavored cookies.
>
> I really would like to understand, and I really wasn't
> raised in any of the traditions most closely
> associated with people of the book. My readings of the
> Bible have touched on many of the better known
> passages, but I've never seen anything that has
> convinced me that "This is the ONLY way, there is no
> other", although I find it very interesting as poetry,
> and a spritual and emotional history of many of my
> friends, including Jews and Christians. I too have
> faith, and morals, but they're based on observed fact
> and logical ethics, rather than the writings of any
> man or men.
>
> > Thusly, if there was dipping going on, that suggests
> > that it was a
> > Seder. Also, there is a certain amount of evidence
> > to suggest that this
> > was a special meal, as there was effort expended to
> > rent a room in which
> > to have the meal.
>
> OK, this makes sense, at least for helping to indicate
> a holiday. Is there any indication that the Apostles
> might have been, um, editing the facts, so that the
> entire thing might have been more emotionally
> satisfactory to Jewish believers? Significant
> discrepancies on this matter, between the several
> writers who witnessed the life of Jesus in the first
> few books of the New Testament? I tend to discount the
> writers who came after a bit.....
>
> Phlip
>

It's one of the things that all four Gospels all agree upon,
actually. Jesus asks the disciples to go and make ready a room so they can
celebrate the feast of unleavened bread (or, the Passover, depending on
which book and which translation).

By the time the gospels are written down, if we are to accept the timing
given in Acts, there are probably more Gentiles than Jews in the ranks of
Christians. And those Christians wouldn't necessarily have any idea as to
what would go on at a Seder.

Margaret