[Sca-cooks] horseradish
Morgan Cain (Ansteorra)
morgancain at earthlink.net
Fri Mar 22 04:42:15 PST 2002
Margaret said:
> The traditions in question are eating charoset and bitter herbs (usually
> horseradish) mixed together on matzoh, and then together between two
> pieces of matzoh as a sandwich.
Stefan commented and asked:
>> Interesting. The only other mention that I've seen of horseradish
>> is eating the root, usually made into a paste or sauce.
>>
>> Does anyone know of any other use of, period or modern,
>> horseradish leaves?
<puzzled> We do use the root, not leaves. Some people have it whole and
eat slices; most people make a paste. You can get the jarred stuff (the red
is my favourite, as it looks prettier on gefilte fish, and it's slightly
sweeter because of the beets) but people take pride in making their own,
which is much stronger because of the freshness. Our senior rabbi makes
some that will clear out not only your sinuses, but those of the two people
sitting on either side of you.
---= Morgan
==============================================================
Life is something that happens when you can't get to sleep.
---= Fran Lebowitz
----- Original Message -----
From: <sca-cooks-request at ansteorra.org>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 1:04 AM
Subject: Sca-cooks digest, Vol 1 #1588 - 18 msgs
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Matzoh flavors (Philip & Susan Troy)
> 2. Re: Matzoh flavors (Seton1355 at aol.com)
> 3. Re: Matzoh flavors (Philip & Susan Troy)
> 4. Re: Pastry (Philip & Susan Troy)
> 5. Re: Margaret's Brithday (Sue Clemenger)
> 6. Re: Matzoh flavors (Seton1355 at aol.com)
> 7. Re: Matzoh flavors (Philip & Susan Troy)
> 8. Re: Matzoh flavors (Seton1355 at aol.com)
> 9. Re: FW:request for recipe(s) (Randy Goldberg MD)
> 10. Re: vatel (Randy Goldberg MD)
> 11. Re: Seder, was Re: [Sca-cooks] FW:request for recipe(s) (Randy
Goldberg MD)
> 12. Re: Seder, was Re: [Sca-cooks] FW:request for recipe(s) (Randy
Goldberg MD)
> 13. Re: Ancient bread (was Re: [Sca-cooks] FW:request for recipe(s))
(Randy Goldberg MD)
> 14. Re: Full beards, no moustache, for Philp (Randy Goldberg MD)
> 15. Re: Full beards, no moustache, for Philp (Randy Goldberg MD)
> 16. Re: Matzoh flavors (Randy Goldberg MD)
> 17. Matzoh flavors (Morgan Cain (Ansteorra))
> 18. horseradish (Stefan li Rous)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 20:40:40 -0500
> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Matzoh flavors
> Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>
> Also sprach Seton1355 at aol.com:
> >"shmurah" matzoh (very specially watched matzoh
>
> Is it true that this product never boils?
>
> Adamantius
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> From: Seton1355 at aol.com
> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 20:55:13 EST
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Matzoh flavors
> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>
> --
> [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> I don;'t think that boiling has anything to do with it. Religious men
make
> Shmurah (literaly: gaurded) 18 minutes from the time the flour hits the
> liquid (water I assume) until out of the oven.
> There is no boiling involved that I know of.
> This is just specially watched matzoh to insure that there is no rising
> taking place.. ("glatt" matzoh if you will.)
> Phillipa
>
> > Also sprach Seton1355 at aol.com:
> > >"shmurah" matzoh (very specially watched matzoh
> >
> > Is it true that this product never boils?
> >
> > Adamantius
> >
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:11:12 -0500
> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Matzoh flavors
> Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>
> Also sprach Seton1355 at aol.com:
> >--
> >[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> >I don;'t think that boiling has anything to do with it. Religious men
make
> >Shmurah (literaly: gaurded) 18 minutes from the time the flour hits the
> >liquid (water I assume) until out of the oven.
> >There is no boiling involved that I know of.
> >This is just specially watched matzoh to insure that there is no rising
> >taking place.. ("glatt" matzoh if you will.)
> >Phillipa
> >
> >> Also sprach Seton1355 at aol.com:
> >> >"shmurah" matzoh (very specially watched matzoh
> >>
> >> Is it true that this product never boils?
> >>
> > > Adamantius
>
> Sorry, I was being a doofus. As in, a watched pot, etc...
>
> A.
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:13:27 -0500
> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pastry
> Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>
> Also sprach jemoore at firstam.com:
> >Looking for a recipe for a basic pastry that pre-dates or is near 1390.
> >Many of the recipes I have found some in 15th century cookbooks, but none
> >before then.
> >
> >Lina
>
> Are we talking about piecrust here, or any non-bread, non-pasta,
> dough products?
>
> Adamantius
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:22:23 -0700
> From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat at in-tch.com>
> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Margaret's Brithday
> Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>
> Hey, Olwen...make her one out of marzipan <g>.....
> --Maire
>
> Olwen the Odd wrote:
> >
> > >Me, I'm just annoyed that Thursday is my birthday and I can't have a
> > >birthday cake this year. :-(
> > >
> > >Margaret, who was also a Bible History major
> >
> > (to the tune of We Wish You a Merry Christmas)
> > WE WISH YOU A HAPPY BIRTHDAY, WE WISH YOU A HAPPY BIRTHDAY, WE WISH YOU
A
> > HAPPY BIRTHDAY AND MAANNY MORE!!!
> >
> > Have a great one Margaret!
> > And don't worry about cake
> > Get a good hug instead!
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 6
> From: Seton1355 at aol.com
> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:45:12 EST
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Matzoh flavors
> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>
> --
> [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> <laughing> OK so *I'm* the dufus! I took you literally. LOL!!!!!! <
> laughing a lot now!>
> Actually Passover does nothing but make me sick!! And I am always saddened
> that I don;t get an Easter basket full of chocolate candy. bummer!
> Phillipa
>
> > Sorry, I was being a doofus. As in, a watched pot, etc...
> >
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:00:31 -0500
> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Matzoh flavors
> Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>
> Also sprach Seton1355 at aol.com:
> >--
> >[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> ><laughing> OK so *I'm* the dufus! I took you literally. LOL!!!!!! <
> >laughing a lot now!>
> >Actually Passover does nothing but make me sick!! And I am always
saddened
> >that I don;t get an Easter basket full of chocolate candy. bummer!
> >Phillipa
>
> Well, now wait a minute. We have a Christian holiday laid over a
> pre-Christian Anglo-Saxon holiday, largely celebrated with paisano
> customs such as eggs and bunnies which have nothing to do with
> Christianity except in the very broadest symbolism of regeneration.
> Why can't _you_ guys have paisano customs to celebrate Passover,
> which have nothing to do with Judaism?
>
> Besides, consider it payback for the "You don't have to be Jewish to
> love Levy's [real Jewish Rye]" ad campaign. "You don't have to be a
> pagan to love chocolate bunnies!"
>
> _Show_ me a rabbi who could object to it! <g>
>
> Adamantius
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 8
> From: Seton1355 at aol.com
> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:15:50 EST
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Matzoh flavors
> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>
> --
> [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> Man! If you have to ask the question you have no idea!!!! <laughing>
> (My father won't even allow non-dairy margarine on baked potatoes served
at a
> meat meal in his home. He says it looks too much like the real thing.)
I'm
> telling you, logic has nothing to do with religion!!
> Phillipa
>
> Oh yes, speaking of religious logic.... I was going to share this
wonderful
> story:
> My mother in law, a lovely lady of 86 grew up in an orthodox home.
> Everything was STRICTLY kosher 100% of the time. Come Easter/Passover my
> m-i-l's father, who was a grocer would bring home one large chocolate
covered
> coconut Easter egg. They would wrap it securely in several sheets of
> newspaper and "hide" it under one of the beds. Other than that, Passover
> preparations & celebrations took center stage.
>
> My m-i-l tells me that as soon as she and her siblings saw 3 stars on the
> eighth night (signaling the end of the holiday) one of the kids would race
> for the egg under the bed and they would lay it out on the kitchen table
and
> have at it.
>
> Needless to say, I was somewhat shocked when I heard this story as all the
> other stories were strictly kosher if you know what I mean.
>
> > Why can't _you_ guys have paisano customs to celebrate Passover,
> > which have nothing to do with Judaism?
> >
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 9
> From: "Randy Goldberg MD" <goldberg at bestweb.net>
> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] FW:request for recipe(s)
> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:37:50 -0500
> Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>
> > I thought it was 'cause, for years, Manichewitz was the only Kosher
> wine
> > available in the US, so people got used to it ;)
> >
> > At least that's what one friend tells me when I bring a good kosher
> wine
> > to his table... "Hey! This isn't what I drank as a kid!"
>
> No, I can say with certainty the tradition goes back to the Old Country,
> and outside Ashkenaz.
>
> Avraham
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 10
> From: "Randy Goldberg MD" <goldberg at bestweb.net>
> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] vatel
> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:39:46 -0500
> Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>
> > I don't have a problem with that, I just have to drag the other vcr
> out to
> > do the dub ;-)
> > margali
> > [and then we'd have to get together to deliver it. What's the next
> event
> > down in your neck of the woods?]
>
> <grin> Several, as you might expect, being an Ostgardrian. The next
> LOCAL event is The Riding of the Marches in May (I'll be crying the
> field and the feast that day). I dunno what's going on in the area
> between now and then - I suspect I may not do any events in April -
> Chris and I need a break.
>
> Avraham
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 11
> From: "Randy Goldberg MD" <goldberg at bestweb.net>
> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Subject: Re: Seder, was Re: [Sca-cooks] FW:request for recipe(s)
> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:47:06 -0500
> Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>
> > OK, exactly what is dipping? Ceremonial dipping of
> > bread into wine? And why and how would this be a
> > symbolic act, at least for the Jews?
>
> Actually, it refers to dipping a bit of greens, once into salt water
> (representing tears) and once into bitter herbs (traditionally
> horseradish in my family, representing the bitterness of the lives of
> the Hebrews under Pharaoh).
>
> > I really would like to understand, and I really wasn't
> > raised in any of the traditions most closely
> > associated with people of the book. My readings of the
> > Bible have touched on many of the better known
> > passages, but I've never seen anything that has
> > convinced me that "This is the ONLY way, there is no
> > other", although I find it very interesting as poetry,
> > and a spritual and emotional history of many of my
> > friends, including Jews and Christians. I too have
> > faith, and morals, but they're based on observed fact
> > and logical ethics, rather than the writings of any
> > man or men.
>
> Judaism, at least, has never claimed to be The One True Way. It claims
> only to be The Right Way For Jews. If you're not born a Jew, you don't
> HAVE to do it our way. There are seven basic laws (called the Seven Laws
> of the Sons of Noah) you must follow if you're not Jewish, and that's
> about it.
> 1. Don't kill
> 2. Don't steal
> 3. No polytheism or idol worship
> 4. No sex crimes
> 5. Keep laws and justice in your society
> 6. Don't commit cruelty to animals
> 7. Don't blaspheme G-d
> Of course, if you ARE born Jewish (or decide, more fool thou, to
> convert), you ARE obligated to the whole kit and kaboodle.
>
> Avraham
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 12
> From: "Randy Goldberg MD" <goldberg at bestweb.net>
> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Subject: Re: Seder, was Re: [Sca-cooks] FW:request for recipe(s)
> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:50:27 -0500
> Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>
> > Matzoh is very dry, and neither of the traditions associated with
> charoset
> > and bitter herbs had been instituted yet (both medieval, I believe) so
>
> Not exactly. It goes back at least as far as Hillel, who headed a
> Yeshiva in the Babylonia city of Sura during the Babylonian Exile - 6th
> c BCE.
>
> > The ritual things you need for a Seder: several pieces of matzoh, the
> > unleavened bread; four cups of wine; charoset to symbolize mortar;
> bitter
> > herbs, usually horseradish; green herbs for spring; a roasted
> something to
> > symbolize the sacrifice, usually a roasted bone although vegetarians
> can
> > use a roasted beet; a hardboiled egg, again for spring, I think; salt
>
> Because eggs are "round" and have no beginning and no end - or so I was
> taught.
>
> > And while I'm wandering on the subject, the ritual blessings are
> > interesting in what they are and aren't for. Wine and bread have their
> own
> > special blessings separate from everything else.
>
> Wine because it's "holy"; bread because it's the staff of life.
>
> Avraham
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 13
> From: "Randy Goldberg MD" <goldberg at bestweb.net>
> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Subject: Re: Ancient bread (was Re: [Sca-cooks] FW:request for recipe(s))
> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:52:57 -0500
> Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>
> > Aye. Even so, every time I opine at Seder that the "bread of
> affliction" of
> > our ancestors probably resembled pita more than modern matzot, my
> father
> > gives me a dirty look. Practically part of the family ritual now,
> much like
> > my brother delivering the Four Questions and Dad beginning the answer
> with
> > "Funny you should ask!"
>
> Less like "pita" as we know it in the US, probably something more like a
> lavash (a middle-eastern flat bread that's very thin, essentially the
> predecessor of the ubiquitous and nasty "wrap").
>
> Avraham
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 14
> From: "Randy Goldberg MD" <goldberg at bestweb.net>
> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Full beards, no moustache, for Philp
> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:57:03 -0500
> Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>
> > Phlip said:
> > ----------------
> > The other is the
> > same law which Orthodox Jewish men obey, in so far as
> > not cutting their facial hair.
> > ----------------
> >
> > So, which law is this?
>
> Essentially, "Thou shalt not cut the corners of thy beard." The Chasidic
> types interpret "the corners of thy beard" to mean the sideburns, which
> is why they have those long curly locks in front of their ears (called
> "payess").
>
> > I think a lot of religious rules/laws/traditions
> > probably came about for similar reasons, although
> > some like the Jewish restrictions on pork probably
> > had practical health reasons, as well.
>
> Probably, although the official Orthodox answer to "Why are pigs treif?"
> is "Because G-d said so". The sociologic answer is that pigs were the
> major meat sacrifice for the surrounding tribes, so pork was forbidden
> to the Jews as a way of maintaining a separate identity - "We don't do
> what THEY do, see?"
>
> Avraham
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 15
> From: "Randy Goldberg MD" <goldberg at bestweb.net>
> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Full beards, no moustache, for Philp
> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:58:24 -0500
> Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>
> > Not that an Ansteorran Count would be scared of some old
> > rain-soaked duke, but I'll concede that anyone who has
> > had a goatee for more than 10 years is stylin'. Everyone
> > else is just following a fad.
>
> I grew mine in late 1992 - early 1993, so it's about 9 years. :-) Of
> course, I admit I was following the fad in the gay community - you
> straight guys didn't pick it up from us for another year or so.
>
> Avraham
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 16
> From: "Randy Goldberg MD" <goldberg at bestweb.net>
> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Matzoh flavors
> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 00:02:20 -0500
> Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>
> > Man! If you have to ask the question you have no idea!!!! <laughing>
> > (My father won't even allow non-dairy margarine on baked potatoes
> served at a
> > meat meal in his home. He says it looks too much like the real
> thing.) I'm
> > telling you, logic has nothing to do with religion!!
>
> Actually, there's a rabbinic prohibition on just this sort of thing in
> the Talmud. You're not allowed to LOOK like you're breaking the rules,
> even if it's legal, lest someone think ill of you.
>
> Avraham
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 17
> From: "Morgan Cain (Ansteorra)" <morgancain at earthlink.net>
> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Matzoh flavors
> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:37:04 -0600
> Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> --
> [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> After I said:
>
> > "We serve matzoh," I answered. And she dithered
> > some more. So I assigned her to bring fruit salad,
> > juice, milk, butter, and several kinds of matzoh.
>
> Phlip asked:
>
> >>How many flavors are there? I was only aware of
> >> two-plain, and with salt. I rather like matzoh,
> >> actually, but then I like most crackers....
>
> And Phillipa answered:
>
> >> plain matzoh
> >> whole wheat matzoh
> >> egg matzoh
> >> oatmeal matzoh
> >> chocolate covered matzoh
> >> "shmurah" matzoh (very specially watched matzoh)
>
> Also onion ones (Adamantius remembered these, I note in a later message),
a=
> nd the "everything" ones that are my favourite (with salt and onion and
oth=
> er good things). I too like matzoh a lot, especially the egg and
everythin=
> g ones. And since I'm Ashkenazic, that's about the only starch I can eat
f=
> or the duration.
>
> Back on the subject of desserts: A couple years ago, my Temple had a
woman=
> in to talk about Pesach desserts. And she was frankly rude about
compote,=
> saying it was good only to counteract the binding effect of matzohs.
Whic=
> h told me two things: (1) she never butters her matzoh, and (2) she
doesn'=
> t know how to make a good compote.
>
> I remember her emphasis was on meringues, whipped cream things, and
flourle=
> ss chocolate cake. So I guess a Pavlova, while not a birthday cake, would
=
> be a perfectly acceptable dessert. Or this hazelnut-mocha cream
concoction=
> that has layers of hazelnut meringue sandwiches with the mocha
buttercream=
> - you have to make it a bit ahead so the cream softens the meringue.
>
> And my favourite trick for good compote is to cook it in wine, at least
par=
> tly. The blackberry I usually get for the charoset (old family recipe) is
=
> a good option.
>
> ---== Morgan
>
>
===========================================================================
> ==================================================
> Life is something that happens when you can't get to sleep.
> ---== Fran Lebowitz
>
>
> --
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 01:03:57 -0600
> From: Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net>
> To: SCA-Cooks maillist <SCA-Cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Subject: [Sca-cooks] horseradish
> Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>
> Margaret said:
> > The traditions in question are eating charoset and bitter herbs (usually
> > horseradish) mixed together on matzoh, and then together between two
> > pieces of matzoh as a sandwich.
>
> Interesting. The only other mention that I've seen of horseradish is
> eating the root, usually made into a paste or sauce.
>
> Does anyone know of any other use of, period or modern, horseradish
> leaves?
>
> Perhaps they are just too bitter for folks to want to eat them
> voluntarily. I assume that, unlike the root, they are not "hot".
>
> For those who might be interested in horseradish root eating see:
> horseradish-msg (24K) 10/29/01 Period use of horseradish. Recipes.
> http://www.florilegium.org/files/PLANTS/horseradish-msg.html
>
> Also, does horseradish grow in the Middle East? Or is this use of
> horseradish leaves as a bitter herb something that the Jews picked up
> in Europe?
>
> --
> THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
> Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas stefan at texas.net
> **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sca-cooks mailing list
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>
>
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