[Sca-cooks] RE: Apples and turnips msg 12 digest, Vol 1 #3042

Fri Jan 3 15:35:15 PST 2003

Although you have much more experience
translating period German than I do, I think I
disagree with your conclusions to the meaning of
the word "zuvar."  Mainly, because you seem to
have overlooked the two preceding words, "ein
wenic"
I think that this combination could mean "a
little before" which in modern German would read
"ein wenig zuvor".  I am guessing that this could
mean "a little before ripeness".  So that when
you press parsley a little before ripeness you
get a sour juice and this is also called "agraz".

Just my opinion.

Huette

--- grasse <grasse at mscd.edu> wrote:
> Greetings from Gwen Cat
> Sorry this is going to get long, convoluted,
> and likely muddy things rather
> than clear them up.
>
> 35. Ein agraz (An agraz )
> > >> > Nim holtze epfele und peterlin und
> bezzin. und stoz ez zu
> sammene
> > >> > und drucke uz. daz die petersilie ein
> wenic zuvar. daz heizzet auch
> > >> > agraz.
>
> First some definitions:
> Agraz is like a verjus, a sour ‘broth’ made of
> unripe fruit.  Often unripe
> grapes but in this case I assume apples.
> I am not familiar with holtze apples.  It may
> be a woody [not good for eating]
> apple, may be a crab apple, but we are agreed
> it is some form of apple.
> Peterlin is a variant word for parsley.
> Bezzin according to Christa Baufeld in the
> ‘Kleines fru:ehneuhochdeutsches
> Wo:erterbuch’ is beta, [Beet, Root, Chard, Bot.
>  Beta Vulgaris L.]
> Some links if you are curious about the actual
> botanical
>
http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/b/beetro28.html
>
>
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/duke_energy/Beta_vulgaris.html
>
> The final word I had to look up was zuvar.  I
> could not find an exact
> definition in Baufeld.  Zuvahen means to
> receive or to become pregnant.
>
> I am venturing what was meant is:
> Take [the above ] and pound them together, and
> press it out, that the parsley
> receives [the color of the beet?]  That is also
> called agraz.
>
> I think Baufeld makes it clear that it is not a
> turnip, though it seems there
> were white beets.  Perhaps what they mean is to
> mush it together till the red
> from the beet colors the green parsley and
> whatever pale/gold/brown the apples
> would add.   I don’t have any of the
> ingredients to hand, so cant try it with
> beet root, beet green, parsley green, parsley
> root [though I find this less
> likely, it should perhaps be considered?], crab
> apples, other perhaps period
> apples [GRINS – Look in the Florilegium, Im
> CERTAIN there is a file on period
> apples and other fruit]
>
> Johnne referred to my translations; I have a
> number of apple recipes from
> Rumpolt, and a handful of ru:eben recipes.
> Mostly webbed here
> http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_veggie1.htm
> Some just say roots, some specify rutabagas,
> some state yellow roots [carrots?
> Rutabagas? Something else?] one wasser ru:ebe,
> and two stickel ru:ebe.  Here
> is what www.yourdictionary.com had to say about
> that word.
>
> 1.	turnip [n.]	Rübe (<-n>) [f.], Steckrübe [f.]
>
> Rumpolt tends to pair steckfu:eben with mutton.
>
> Unfortunately nothing I have pairs apples with
> root veggies.
>
> Sorry to have only hijacked  the discussion
> further from the original request,
> and muddied the waters further.
>
> In Service to the Dream [and looking for JUST
> the right dish to bring to a
> household lunch potluck at 12th night on
> Saturday
>
> Catrin von Berlin called Gwen Cat [at least
> thats what I'm trying to pass now]
>
> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
> >Message: 12
> >Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 17:56:14 -0500
> >From: johnna holloway
> <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
> >To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> >Subject: [Sca-cooks] Apples and turnips
> >Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> >
> >>  Johnnae llyn Lewis said:
> >> >>  > I found this one and it's even
> German--
> >> >>  >
> >> >>  > 35. Ein agraz (An agraz )
> >> >>  >     Nim holtze epfele und peterlin und
> bezzin. und stoz ez zu sammene
> >> >>  >  und drucke uz. daz die petersilie ein
> wenic zuvar. daz heizzet auch
> >> >>  > agraz.
> >> >>  >     Take wood apples and parsley and
> turnips and pound it together
> and
> >> >>  > press it out, that the parsley colors
> a little. That is also called
> Agraz.
> >> >>  >
> >> >>  > Ein Buch von guter spise
> >> >>  > copyright 1993 Alia Atlas
> >> >>  >
> >> >>  >
>
http://cs-people.bu.edu/akatlas/Buch/recipes.html#recipe35
> >Stefan asked--
> >> >>  Okay, but what do you do with this
> appple/parsley/turnip paste? Do you
> >> >>  eat it raw? Or cook it like a fritter?
> Or stew it?
> >Avraham said--
> >> >Based on the context in Guter Spiese, and
> looking at other recipes
> >> >called "Agraz", I assumed it was a sauce
> type concoction.
> > to which "Phil Troy/ G. Tacitus Adamantius"
> wrote:
> >> Maybe a relish of sorts. FWIW, the Melitta
> Weiss Adamson translation
> >> says you use crabapples (which would account
> for the name, rough
> >> cognate of the Italian "agresto", or
> verjuice) and beets.
> >> > Adamantius, certified party pooper
> >-------------
> >I actually noticed that when I checked the
> Adamson translation later
> >after posting.
> >She translates this one as:
> >"Take crab apples, parsley, beet-root, mash
> everything..." instead of
> >"wood apples, parsley and turnips" as Alia
> Atlas does.
> > What I found interesting is that Adamson does
> not index any of these
> >recipes as containing "turnips". This number
> 35 is also the only one
> >that
> >contains "beet root" listed in the index.
> Perhaps Gwencat has translated
> >something
> >with apples and turnips from the 16th century?
> >
> >Johnnae llyn Lewis  Johnna Holloway
> >
>
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=====
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves for they
shall never cease to be amused.

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