[Sca-cooks] Circles (was Period gifts in jars + question)

Sat Nov 27 16:27:47 PST 2004

Chris Stanifer wrote:
> 
> --- "Martin G. Diehl" <mdiehl at nac.net> wrote:
> > Yes, the work could have been done over some period of
> > time.  With that assumption, we have to wonder how the
> > project was planned and continued to work toward that
> > goal over a time span of 50 to 500 years.
> >
> > The way I see it, the effort to complete those sites
> > remains an enormous puzzle no matter how we look at it.
> 
> If crews of 1000 men worked 12 hour days, that's 12000 
> man hours per day, times 7 days equals 84,400 man hours 
> per week.  350,000 man hours divided by 84,400 gives us 
> just about one month's worth of work.  Certainly 1000 
> good, strong men could have been spared from the field 
> to construct this monument, and a 12 hour day would 
> probably seem like a vacation to them.  Even at only 
> 500 workers, they could have gotten it done in 2 months.
> 
> I'm thinking the estimate of 'man hours' is probably not 
> accurate...or it just didn't take that long to build.
> 
> Wm de Grandfort

Thanks for your response.  It served the good purpose of 
getting me do additional research -- lots of fun, too.  

Some other points to consider at the estimated time of
constructing those sites ... 

(1) Metallurgy ... 

At the time of erecting those 2 sites, they probably had 
only stone and antler tools.  

Copper might have been known at that time -- but copper 
alone is not strong enough to be any help.  

Copper hardened by arsenic is later -- associated with the 
Bell Beaker period -- ca. 2500 to 2000 BC.  

Bronze (copper 90% and tin 10%) almost certainly not known 
or generally used until ca. 2000 to 1800 BC.  

Iron smelting was not known until ca. 1500 BC -- rather 
recent, don't you think?  

(2) Lifting tools ... 

The actual tools are unknown; e.g. use of "Block and Tackle" 
is very unlikely at that time.  

Probable method was to dig a hole that was deep enough for
stability, shaped to the base of the standing stone, and 
with a slanted trench from the side of the hole toward the 
recumbent stone.  By drawing on it with ropes, it would 
slide toward the hole and then tip into an upright position.  
Packing stones would have ben placed about the base for 
stability and then back filled with soil.  

The necessary horizontal force that must be supplied is at 
least 20% of the stone's deadweight.  As a safety issue, 
you need additional ropes and workers to ensure that it 
could not shift to either side or overbalance toward the 
main body of workers.  

(3) Transportation ... 

In the worst case scenario, they would have had to drag the 
stones from where they occurred naturally -- the stones used 
for the Stones of Stenness and Ring of Brodgar could have 
come from a site near the Ring of Bookan or possibly 6 miles 
away from Vestra Fiold.  

(4) Food gathering ... 

While working, I think some time might have been related to 
food gathering -- even without that being a primary activity.  

(5) Work time ... 

12 hours per day seems a bit long -- using stone tools to 
break bedrock during dawn, twilight, fog, or rain would 
produce far more broken fingers that broken rocks.  

(6) Population ... 

In Burl, Aubrey; "A Guide to the Stone Circles of Britain, 
...", the author proposes a methodology to estimate the 
population associated with a neolithic site.  

The upper population bound could be estimated by the number 
of people who could be comfortably accommodated within the 
stone ring.  

The lower population bound could be estimated by the number 
of workers needed to erect the largest (heaviest) stone at 
the site. 

For The Ring of Brodgar, that could have been as many as 
3,000 within the ring -- but allowing for ceremony, perhaps 
only 1,500.  Of that population perhaps only 20% (300) by 
virtue of age and health could have worked on the heavy 
construction.  A team of at least 50 workers would have 
been needed to erect the largest stones.  

You should see the web page, "Rethinking the great stone 
circles of Northwest Britain" (nearly the last web page I 
found for this topic) -- The author notes some of the same 
issues you raised about construction time and also notes a 
very different interpretation of the construction process.  
He even suggests that the quarrying and transportation 
activity was the 'celebration', " ... it may have been the 
actual acts of construction that provided the main social 
focus.  ... Just imagine the gathering of hundreds of 
people to both watch and participate in the dragging of a 
massive single stone."

Research issues and digressions used in this response ... 

Richards, Colin; "Rethinking the great stone circles of 
Northwest Britain"; 
http://www.orkneydigs.org.uk/dhl/papers/cr/

17 papers are listed 
http://www.orkneydigs.org.uk/dhl/papers/index.html

"Orkney Archaeological Trust" 
http://www.orkneydigs.org.uk/

I tried to create a metallurgy timeline for this response, 
but the information I saw on various websites disagreed 
among themselves by about 1,000 years.  

I really want to have a book reference on this topic!  
Fire, Ceramics, and Metallurgy are all contributors to 
each other's advancement.  

OTOH, "Ötzi, the glacier man" (today's unexpected find) -- 
http://www.angelfire.com/me/ij/oetzie.html 

About halfway down the Ötzi web page, note how the leather 
'pants' or 'leggins' are attached by cords.  Similar to 
the leggings worn under tunics in the Middle Ages which 
eventually became hose and codpiece.  

See "A brief history of that most delectable of subjects: 
codpieces" 
http://www.renaissancedancewear.com/codpieces.html
(ob clothing reference -- at least it's on topic for the 
SCA and only slightly off topic for this list -- i.e. not 
about food).  

If you want to read about "Ötzi, the glacier man" in book 
form that would be Spindler, Konrad; "The Man in the Ice: 
The Discovery of a 5,000-Year-Old Body Reveals the Secrets 
of the Stone Age"  

Thanks so very much for taking the effort to go through 
and read all of this to reach the point where I stop.  <g> 

Vincenzo

-- 
Martin G. Diehl

http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=MGD

Reality: That which remains after you stop thinking about it.
  inspired by P. K. Dick