[Sca-cooks] Circles (was Period gifts in jars + question)

[Chris Stanifer]

--- "Martin G. Diehl" <mdiehl at nac.net> wrote:


> > Give me a lever long enough, and I will move the world ...
> 
> OK ... but did *they* have the lever *then*?  

I'm not entirely sure about this.  I'd like to do just a wee bit more research on the lever before
I make a comment :)


> > Still, it wouldn't take that many workers very long to 
> > get these bad boys into position.  
> 
> ... after quarrying and moving ... perhaps as much as 
> 6 miles.  The stones at the Ring of Brogdar seem to have 
> come from all over that island. 


How big is the island?  6 miles of pulling a 12,000 pound chunk of stone sounds like a lot, but
I'd be willing to bet that they used some kind of sled or roller system to reduce the
drag/friction.  50 men pulling with ropes could have handled it, if they switched out crews at
regular intervals, don't you think?  As for the quarrying, it really depends on what *kind* of
stone was being used.  The white quartz used for the outer walls is fairly soft, and the inner
structure was probably complete quite a while before the final perimeter stone was in place.  If
those big stones were made of granite, then we'd see a long quarrying process, but a softer
mineral may have been used.  Any idea?


 
> > Horses???  
> 
> No.  Before the invention and introduction of the horse 
> collar in 600 to 800 AD, the maximum load a horse could 
> pull was about 500 lbs.  


What about 9 or 10 horses pulling together??

 
> > > (4) Food gathering ...
> > >
> > > While working, I think some time might have been 
> > > related to food gathering -- even without that being 
> > > a primary activity.
> > 
> > This was probably done by the rest of the 
> > clan/tribe/whathaveyou while the work was being done.
> 
> Yes, it is still a reallocation of labor from food 
> gathering to monument building.  

Yes, but it's not going to put these fellows decades behind schedule, as has been suggested (50
years or so, wasn't it?).  Even if you spend only half of your time pushing stone, and the other
half hunting chickens, it wouldn't have taken that long to construct a site like Stennes.  Don't
get me wrong, I'm not saying it was easy..I'm merely suggesting that the site probably did not
take 50 to 100 years (or longer) to construct, as has been suggested.  Of course, it all depends
on the labor pool available.  If it was done by 5 guys in loin cloths, then yeah...they'd probably
take a while.


> > I think that if we were to take a little trip back to 
> > Neolithic times, we'd find these folks toiling away well 
> > into the evening, 
> 
> Without efficient lighting ... how?  Was that possible in 
> the Middle ages?  
> 


It's hard to say when, during the year, the thing was built.  If it were me, I'd suggest starting
it in the Spring or early Summer, when the days are long, light is plentiful, and food is
abundant.  Most likely, that's when they started it, too.  If the sun comes up at 7 am, and you
work until 7 pm, you're probably going to hear the whistle just before the sun sinks down below
the horizon.  Again, depends on what time of year they did the work, and there may be some
differences in day-length due to the northern latitude of the site.

> 
> > 12 hours sounds like a long time by today's standards, 
> > when the average workday is 6 to 8 hours long 
> 
> I don't know about your averages ... for most of my last 
> 11 years as an employee at the public accounting firm 
> Deloitte & Touche, I worked 3000 hours a year. 


Well, my *averages* weren't what you'd call average, either (restaurant and hotel business....14
to 16 hour days most of the time)..but for the general population of the modern world, 6 to 8
hours is about all they can handle (retail, fast food, etc).  I've actually heard co-workers
(servers, mostly) whine like they had lost their puppy when they found out they were going to have
to stay a full 8 hours.

 
> > What??  Where did the author come up with this number??  
> > This is assuming that the entire social unit lived 
> > within the confines of the ring/structure, 
> 
> No ... his assumption is that the ring would need to be 
> large enough to accommodate the  population (congregation) 
> at the time of a solar or moon alignment.  


I'm not convinced that the entire population participated in these ceremonies, or that they all
had to be crammed inside the ring when they were underway.  It seems to be a common idea that the
entire clan/social unit participated 'hands-on' in these ceremonies, but what we know of other
Ancient Cultures (Mayans, Aztecs, etc) seems to indicate the opposite, or at the very least that
the 'religious class' were the only ones involved.  Sure, the pious villager may have peeked in
through the perimeter of the ring, but I don't think they were *all* inside dancing around naked. 
I just don't see that as something which would have been...well...sensible.  This is, of course,
all unsubstantiated.  However, when the Pope gives Mass, you don't see every Catholic in the world
trying to cram into the Vatican.

> 
> [snip]
> 
> > These were, mostly, rings of stones with some kind of 
> > socio-religious importance. 
> 
> Probably ... and needed to be big enough for everyone to 
> observe the ceremony associated with the solar or lunar 
> alignment.  


Or, more likely, they needed to be able to see the ceremony *through* the rings.... which may have
been why they were rings of standing stones, and not walls, per se.  We know they could build
solid walls...so why didn't they in these cases?

> Of course, we can think of a shorter time ... and prove 
> that it's possible.  But how fast could they do it 5,000 
> years ago using *only* what they knew then? 


The problem is, we don't really know *what* they knew then.  As far as tools and equipment goes,
we only have what has survived to go by.  As far as knowledge, and engineering, and science, we
can only speculate.  However, even rudimentary engineering would *seem* to make a project like
this possible, and in less time than 50 to 100 years or more.

 
> 
> > I'm no engineer, by any means, but it just seems to me 
> > that, if I could do it, they could do it.  
> 
> Yes ... the whole basis of the SCA -- provided we act 
> within what was known in historical period.  


See above.

> 
> > People, in general, seem to rally around an idea, if it 
> > seems like it might benefit them in some way.  I'd wager 
> > folks came from miles away to get a piece of this Stone 
> > Standing action...
> 
> Sure.  But still had to feed them -- and might have been 
> less to go around (hunter/forager) for all of those visitors.  


On the other hand, the more people, the more labor available for hunting/gathering, as well...
provided the herbs, plants and animals hold out for a few months while construction is under way
:)

WdG



=====
Through teeth of sharks, the Autumn barks.....and Winter squarely bites me.


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! 
http://my.yahoo.com