[Sca-cooks] Fwd from the MKCC Facilities Coordonator (dec 4 MK event)

[iasmin at comcast.net]

Forwarded at the request of the author. Responses should be copied to her as she's not a member of SCA Cooks.


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Good cooks, gentles and nobles,

It has come to my attention through secondary sources that many are disappointed in the facility for the upcoming Middle Kingdom Cooks' Symposium [December 4th, 2004]. I am gratified I have this route to talk directly with you, and I encourage any of you who wish to do so, to contact me directly so we can discuss your concerns. If we can find ways to make attendance work for you, we'll do our best. This I promise you, witnessed by all of you. 

Since there were quite a few posts on this subject, I'd like to include issues 
from several of you. This is lengthy, but since I've not had a chance to respond 
until now, a lot of things came forward for discussion.

I will start with the note that sums up the issue, from Her Ladyship Johnnae 
ilyn Lewis. Her original letter content will be marked with >> and my responses 
will follow.

>>Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 07:52:16 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Wheelchairs- OT- was Cooks Symposium Dec 4
Thanks for all the kind words and warm regards  (both on and offlist)as to my 
value at being at the MKCulinary event in December as well as the moral outrage expressed at the site being inaccessible. In my case I can walk, although given time and place and slope and stairs, it can be very slow and very painful. It's isn't the first trip down on the stairs that kills one--- it's the 30th. On certain days, it's ok, I manage. On other days, I can't do it.<<

It's great to have support. However, when you and I first began discussing this 
event, in December of last year, when I was able to announce that Three Hills 
had elected to host this event, I told you upfront and right away, that the site 
had sets of stairs, and I acknowledged it would be challenging for you. I let 
you in on the news of that successful bid, before I announced it to anyone else. In fact, we had discussed that same issue every time we were at an event together in 2004. That was rare, granted, but I am surprised that you don't recall any of those instances. 

In addition, when you contacted the staff on September 28, we began what I 
thought was a productive and cooperative dialogue about accomodating your needs. We were ready and able to have people personally help you up and down the stairs. We were going to schedule your classes in the basement, where the kitchen you'd wanted to use, is located. Restrooms are on both the main and basement level of the church; so basic needs are met. The onsite lunch and the potluck dinner are both going to be in the basement. Baroness Iasmin had told you she had lined up one person specifically to assist you all day long. It was -your- decision to not accept the assistance we worked with you to provide, and would work to do for -anyone- who asks. The trips you would have needed to take up and down the stairs were minimized considerably from the thirty times you've mentioned above. I don't believe this information had been presented on the list; at least it was not included in the forwarded emails I have received. 

Please tell both sides of the story, it makes the situation look quite a bit 
different. Anyone who would like to see these emails between Johnnae, Hauviette, Iasmin, and myself, please do contact me. I believe I still have them all. 

>>I think in the long run what bothers me most is the fact that the
home page still does not mention the fact http://home.comcast.net/~iasmin/2004cooks/ and that the original 
description/invitation posted widely last April made no mention of the fact that the site would have a great number of stairs.<<

We had difficulties, including Real Life issues, that prevented some of the 
information getting up as quickly as we would have liked, including a peer who 
promised to work on the website and reneged after we had figured he was going to do it and we wouldn't need to be concerned about it. I'm sorry we failed there. I thought I had included a line about it not being handicapped-friendly, but perhaps I overlooked it when I used the copy for the last event we had hosted at that site, as the basis for my announcement about MKCC. I have to check my email and hard drive to verify, but rest assured, I will do so, to ensure I don't overlook that again. Thank you for pointing that out. Had you emailed me to let me know about this at the time you discovered it? Please check, as I will. We email frequently, I'm certain the situation could have been remedied had I known, or recalled that you'd let me know.

The copy that went for the November Pale has the information about 
accessibility; and I believe that is now on the website, or will be. I will 
gladly send a copy of it to any of you who wishes; I can either copy and paste 
it into an email, or send it as a Word attachment; your preference. This 
information will not be distributed in print for another couple of weeks (for 
those who get First class), so if you want to know, NOW is the time to ask me.

>> It was only after I inquired on 9/27/2004 that I learned on
9/28/2004 that "The site is not handicapped friendly, unfortunately. The classes will be taking place in the basement. If there's overflow, classes will be done upstairs in the sanctuary."<<

See above comments. Right now, I have my word against yours, that we have 
discussed this beginning in December 2003, and again on more than one occasion in 2004, in person, and in emails (which I need to find, if people wish proof)

>>There are a number of things that one can do to prepare for events
like this but the essential thing we must have is the information as regards 
stairs, elevators, ramps or lack thereof. There's no getting around the fact 
that there are stairs at this event and building ramps is not going to help.<<

We never discussed ramps, but we did discuss elevators. One of the things you didn't mention, was that those who have disabilities need to plan like the rest of us, several months in advance, and ASK the questions early, if the 
information you are seeking does not come to you. If I had been made aware in April, 2004, that I had neglected that important aspect, I would have had 
approximately five months in which to make the change. No one else had noticed in that time period, either, surprisingly enough.

Johnnae, you and I have discussed your knees and mine. We're kindred spirits in that. Most of you on this list aren't aware of that;let me give you some 
background: I had arthroscopic surgery on my left knee Feb. 8 this year, four 
days after I coordinated the vendors for ValDay, an event that draws about 1100 people and approximately 50 vendors, no small task. I am having surgery on my right knee December 8, four days after the Cooks' Symposium. Those stairs aren't easy for me either, and I'll be doing them countless times at MKCC, as the facility coordinator. It's a lot more likely that _I_ will be making the thirty trips up and down those stairs, if not more. (I'll be beefing up on ibuprofen) I scheduled those surgical procedures around my two event committments :-) and my real life and my merchant schedule. Handy. 

The point I want to make is: I understand your concerns. I understand what it 
means to have to ask those questions. I take personal responsibility for myself, and if I see an event that I would like to attend, and I don't see the 
information I need to make a decision, I ask. I ask early on, and I'm also a 
vendor, and as a vendor, I have to consider my event schedule differently than 
some other SCA people. I(has to be set up to nine months in advance) have to ask the same questions, for some of the same reasons, and more. It's one thing to prepare yourself to do stairs; it's quite another to have to load yourself with merchandise and tables to move up and down those stairs; I won't do it without an elevator. (I was born at night, but I wasn't born LAST night) :-0

I also have respiratory allergies. I have to look at where events take place. To 
include equestrian activities, events either need to be outdoors, or indoors at 
a facility that accomodates. Are you all with me so far? When I look at the 
event announcement and notice that it's held in barns at a fairgrounds, or in a 
stock pavilion on a college campus, I decide then and there whether or not I 
attend. I either have to stay home and stay healthy, or go and take extra 
medication and listen to my body's reaction through the day and judge how long I stay, or I could choose to complain to everyone but the autocrats about how my needs are not being met by that particular SCA event. 

>>The classes I started planning after the announcement last April
can be taught at another venue at another time. That's just postponement in my case. I teach hither and yon or used to anyway. However, There's no advance registration for the MKCC event; people just show up.<<

Nowhere does it say there is no preregistration. I've noticed that people 
generally don't pre-register for most events, unless it's a requirement. Don't 
hold lack of pre-registration as a legitimate complaint about the event. 

>>I just hope that no one arrives for the event and finds that they
cannot manage the stairs after having driven hours to get there. Imagine the 
disappointment then.<<

I can't conceive of someone traveling from any distance -not- verifying 
information about the event and the site ahead of time. Well, maybe able-bodied folk, but not those with physical challenges. I'm accustomed to inquiring; other disabled folk I know just assume they have to ask, and often do even -if- the site announcements indicate they are handicapped-accessible. That term means different things to the able-bodied versus those with limitations. (I'm sure at least some of you know Meistari Hroar, from Star Hammer Arts Magickal; he's quite limited physically, and he -always-always-always- asks about event facilities -himself-)

>> Advance upfront and honest information about "stairs" is a very
good thing. I think that's the least we can expect; it's the honorable course 
and courteous thing to do.<<

Honor and courtesy are landmarks of the SCA. I believe it with all my heart. 
However, I do not believe in wanting the information to come to ME, if I am 
looking for something in particular. I do not blame the failings of others for 
my lack of initiative in taking care of my needs when I need to decide about 
attending an event. Honor and courtesy also include dealing directly with the 
person in the position to help you, not complaining list wide and including 
numerous inaccuracies in your account to boot.

Not every event is going to be every thing to every body every time. Not every 
event has every single possible activity for everyone every weekend. They would all be the same. Even those that do pique my interest are not always within my ability to attend, for various reasons. It is getting extremely difficult to obtain good sites for good prices that will meet the needs of any given event. If you stop to think about it, trying to "do" an event is becoming more 
challenging every year. I like the challenge; I like to organize venues for 
others to indulge their passion, whatever it is. I realize that not everyone is 
going to be satisfied, but most are. I think that's pretty decent. 

>From another email of Johnnae's:
>>The knee has not been good at all of late. Of course I was on
Vioxx and now I'm not which doesn't help the situation either. 
Driving myself over is  now problematic and then to be confronted to a day of up and down  stairs?!?  I am still pondering the options. I was due to teach 
Confections with  part one  being history and resources and part two being nifty equipment and  practical stuff.<<

There are a couple of things here I can address: It is not my fault that you are 
looking at driving yourself. That is your choice, it has nothing to do with the 
facility; you were going to be doing it anyway, regardless, unless arrangements could have been made with someone on this list to work with you in that regard. It is also not my fault Vioxx was taken off the market. If your best pain medication is no longer available, that is not the fault of the facility for this event. The wording of the above paragraph is lumping the Vioxx issue in with the event, lumping the driving which would have occurred -anyway-, AFTER we had been working on ways to accomodate the needs you indicated to us. When it was indicated that you'd need the kitchen, we were going to work with you to schedule your classes in the basement. (as noted above). The facility and the event staff, have absolutely no control over what the United States FDA does. This was an unfortunate turn of things for you personally, but it is not the fault of the facility, the event staff, or the web page.

Now, on to another person's concerns:

Ranvaig wrote:
>>  It is a good thing if events can get an accessible site, and I
will  write and say how disappointed I am  to miss the event.<<

I have not yet received any communication from anyone, except forwards. I 
believe my contact information has been available for some time, and I know that HL Johnnae could have provided my email address to any of you months ago. For reference, it's judith.a.kirk at wmich.edu.

And from another individual:

>> Hmm have ye heard of a law called of the ADA? Tis something one
can do to try adn get sites more "Handicapped accessible" Being in a wheelchair  myself I get pissed when I see sites that are made where even short people have problems moving around in, Chass of Rundel of Ansteorra <<

Being short is not the fault of any site, anywhere, anytime. You are born that 
way. I'm sorry if this comes off as crass, but there it is. I am a direct, 
forthright individual, you will -always- know where I stand on issues, and where you stand with me. :-) Just for giggles, how many of you with disabilities have ever attempted to run an event, to locate a site that is going to meet the needs of the -event-. It is not easy. I'm 5'4", I'm used to having to deal with things being beyond my reach, and stairs that are sometimes not fit to my legs. But it's something I celebrate as being a part of who I am, as Judith Kirk and as 
Siobhan O'Neill. I don't hold anyone else accountable for -me-.

The ADA applies to public buildings. Those that did not comply, had X amount of 
time in which to do so. Those public buildings built after the ADA was enacted, 
were required to incorporate access elements into every aspect of the design. 
This is a private church. In fact, the Kalamazoo Gazette just had a wonderful 
news story this past Sunday (10/10) about this facility (I think you can find it 
at www.mlive.com; I might not have this url correct; Google on "Kalamazoo 
Gazette" (put quotes around it) and you might be able to find it.

The Cathedral was built in 1969 for (I think) $15 million dollars. ADA was not 
around at that time. The architectural design of the facility did not include 
the potential for an elevator. The article in the Gazette actually is discussing 
the potential sale of this building, because the congregation is so small it 
cannot provide the money for upkeep. So it's entirely possible this is going to 
be a moot point after December 4, we may lose accessibility to that site due to 
reasons outside our control. That is one less site for us to use in my canton, 
and our -only- wet site.

I have enjoyed a long and productive working relationship with the people in 
that facility. I've worked with two facility coordinators in the last fifteen 
years, hosting close to a dozen SCA events in that facility at that time. Not 
once...not once....have I heard a complaint about that site, until now. And even 
now, indirectly, behind my back.

I have discussed the inaccessibility factor with these facility people. They 
have done studies on how they could modify the church to accomodate, since 
members of their own congregation need such a thing. Unfortunately, a retrofit 
-always- costs more money than having the 'whatever' included in the original 
architectural design, and honestly, the church could not afford it. They 
acknowledged this as a priority need, but if they can't even make their rent 
(with a congregation of about one hundred), it's ludicrous to expect them to 
spend thousands of dollars on an elevator. But no one asked about this to the 
person who could have cleared this up for you. Me.

And from another individual:

>> Now this is ridiculous. We have two very serious Cooks, who have a lot  to offer to any event, not just a cooking symposium, and they can't go  because  the site's not wheelchair accessible. What can we do, to encourage Accessibilty for everyone. While I personally, could deal with steps,  on a  bad knee day I 
really don't want to, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Any  ideas,  folks? I'm 
starting to get really angry. Saint Phlip, CoD<<

I believe I responded to something you'd written that had been forwarded to me last week. I have not heard back from you, I am assuming I addressed your 
questions adequately? Please let me know if you have any additional questions. Anyone who would like to see my letter to Lady Phlip, please contact me, I'll share it. There are no secrets here, no conspiracies, nobody is discriminating against anyone. 

It seems this event has become a focal point for discussion on accessibility 
issues in general in the SCA. But please don't tar and feather a venue that was 
bid on out of choice, by people who wanted to provide a forum for others to 
indulge their specialized interests, to give you the chance to meet and greet 
with others of your own kind, and to provide a very nice facility with a 
fandamtastic kitchen (unlike the one at the previous Cooks' Symposium, about 
which HL Johnnae also had many complaints aired quite publically and often). 
This entire thread has caused me to feel that I made a tremendous mistake in 
wanting to do this in the first place. Is this the intent you had in mind, to 
complain SO much that someone feels they don't want to offer -this- class of 
persons another venue? Is this the honor and courtesy that -you- will accord
-me- for providing you with this opportunity?

Johnnae...Phlip...anyone else. Here is my challenge to each and every one of 
you: Find a site that will give you what you need. DO NOT rely on others to do 
this for you; it apparently does not seem to be working, and it has been 
painfully apparent by the nature of this discussion. Take charge of your own 
destinies, and accept the responsibility of finding a site that meets the needs 
you have been expressing. Organize the venue for your fellow cooks, and give up one opportunity to -teach-, in order to -provide-.  Johnnae....you have told me you know of facilities where you could look to possibly host one of these cooks' symposiums. My recommendation to you, my strongest recommendation to you, is to find one, and make a bid on the 2005 Cooks' Symposium.  I am not afraid to admit that I still have much to learn in this world, if I can learn from you, I welcome the opportunity to expand my knowledge base.

Another note: there are more and more cooks' symposiums being scheduled all over the place. I know of three of them, including the one I am facilitating, just in the Middle Kingdom, within I believe a three-month period. One of them is in 
Ohio, Phlip; I know you live in SE Ohio, am I correct? By all means, if you do 
not want to attend the MKCC, please choose one of the other venues, and share your knowledge with your fellows. But do look at what they say about the site's accessibility, and if you are not seeing what you need to see, ASK THE AUTOCRAT directly, instead of doing what was done in this situation: complaining loud and long publically without extending the courtesy to a fellow SCAdian, of copying them in on your concerns, or even asking them directly  FIRST, before letting the thread wheel out of control in a venue where the subject cannot respond as the questions are raised. That is NOT the way to deal with this kind of issues -if- you expect any changes or cooperation to meet your specific needs. If I do not know what you need, don't expect me to deliver it. I am not a mind-reader.

I leave all of you with my sincerest wishes for good health and good studies. 
Please don't hesitate to contact me if you have any questions, no matter how 
trivial or silly you think they may be. No question is stupid or silly, it means 
you have an interest in learning. I welcome the opportunity to talk with as many of you as wish to communicate with me.

Yours,
Mistress Siobhan O'Neill, OL, OP.
Facility coordinator, MKCC
judith.a.kirk at wmich.edu 
1-269-385-4717 (leave a message, I -will- return your call)