[Sca-cooks] Romany in Spain

[Martin G. Diehl]

Stefan li Rous wrote:

Thanks for your response.  

> Vincenzo asked me:
> > 
> > > You might also throw the Rom (Gypsies) into this, 
> > > since they had a major influence on Spanish dance 
> > > and probably other cultural areas.
> >
> > How early are you envisioning the Romany in Spain?
> 
>  From the Gypsies-msg file in the Florilegium:
> 
> > According to a book I have, 'The Gypsies', by 
> > Jean-Paul Clebert (pub. Penguin, my edition 1970), 
> > the Gitanos are actually one of the the three main 
> > Groups of Gypsies (the others are the Kalderash and 
> > the Manuchs, called Manouches in France), called 
> > Gitans in France.  
> >
> > The dates Clebert gives for the appearance of 
> > Gypsies in Europe are: 
> >
> > 855?            Byzantium
> > 1260 (or 1399?) Bohemia
> > 1322?           Crete
> > 1346            Corfu
> > 1348            Serbia
> > 1378            The Pelopennese, Zagreb
> > 1414            Basle
> > 1417            Transylvania, Moldavia, The Elbe
> > 1418            Saxony, Augsburg
> > 1419            France, Sisteron
> > 1420?           Denmark
> > 1422            Bologna, Rome
> > 1427            Paris
> > 1430 (or 1440?) Wales
> > 1447            Barcelona
> > 1492 (or 1505)  Scotland
> > 1500            Russia
> > 1509            Poland
> > 1515            Sweden
> >
> > He notes that these dates mark the *'official'* 
> > appearance of Gypsies, and doesn't necessarily 
> > mean they were not already there.
> 
>  From the Gypsie-timeline-art file:
> 
> > 1425 A.D.  Roma are recorded in Zaragoza, Spain.  
> > 1492 A.D.  The first anti-Gypsy laws are passed in Spain.
> 
> Stefan 

Those are good timelines.  

I had heard that the Rom had not left India until the 
1400's -- based on language analysis.  (but I have no 
supporting research)  

I consulted with my buddy Google by asking where I could read 
about, 'Gypsies|romany language timeline' -- too bad that I 
don't have enough time today (or any other day <g> ... as one 
of my sig lines notes) to read all of the 8,540 citations.  

>From this one, "Roma Information From Answers.com"; 
http://www.answers.com/topic/roma-people 

	The Roma are believed to have left India about 
	AD 1000 and to have passed through what is now 
	Afghanistan, Persia, Armenia, and Turkey. 

I also asked my buddy Google, "Spain Moslem timeline" ... 
and received 3,560 citations ... including, 

"Timeline Spain thru 1899"; 
http://timelines.ws/countries/SPAIN_A.HTML 

Quoting two key excerpts ... 

711     Jul 9, Berbers under Tarik-ibn Ziyad occupied 
	Northern Spain. The Umayyads with the help of the 
	Berbers in North Africa moved across the Strait 
	of Gibraltar and began the conquest of Spain and 
	Portugal. The Berber leader Tarik crossed the 
	Strait of Gibraltar and began the Muslim conquest 
	of Spain. The word Gibraltar comes from the term 
	Jabal-al-Tarik, which means the hill of Tarik. 
	Gebel-al-Tarik means “Rock of Tarik.”

1212    Jul 16, Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa marked the 
	end of Muslim power in Spain.
 

My main concern was that someone would think that the 
Arabs and the Roma were in Spain at the same time.  

In like fashion ... just because we can document chocolate 
and coffee to some time around the 1600's doesn't mean the 
Irish monks sipped Cappuccino while scribing or 
illuminating the Lindisfarne Gospels or the Book of Kells.  

Incidentally, that second search led to finding, 

"Timelines of History"; 
http://timelines.ws/

Vincenzo

-- 
Martin G. Diehl 

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