[Sca-cooks] RE: Cannibalism , ritualistic or otherwise
Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius
adamantius.magister at verizon.net
Fri Apr 22 19:35:12 PDT 2005
Also sprach el2iot2 at mail.com:
>I did not make church doctrine. I only teach it.
>
>The same way you state you teach foodhandleing. NO DIFFERENCE.
>
>verification of church doctrine as addressed by your Questions about
>the statements I made can be found in original form in the "Nicene
>Creed" as establish in the first<AD325> and second<AD787> Nicene
>Councils.
>
>You expect respect for your credentials, yet say mine can be from
>any "Crackpot orginization". I accepted yours on faith, that is the
>mark of a civilized conversation.
>
>LAST POST ON THIS TOPIC>
>
>I am done with it. See the "Nicene Creed" for farther information.
>
>joy
>Radei
Wow! I confess I'm surprised to see my private note posted to the
Cooks' List. Despite an almost overwhelming temptation to do
otherwise, I've responded privately.
Adamantius
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
>To: el2iot2 at mail.com
>Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: Cannibalism , ritualistic or otherwise
>Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:46:49 -0400
>
>>
>> Also sprach el2iot2 at mail.com:
>> > not true. not wanting an argument. but I have been viciously
>> > attacked for my views. people who are not being rational, just
>> > hateful. not intended to refer to you
>>
>> I'm sorry if anyone responded to you in a hateful manner, but I
>> didn't. In fact, I didn't respond to you at all, nor did I see
>> anyone else respond to you in a hateful manner. Two or three people
>> disagreed with you, at least one of whom did so quite
>> dispassionately as someone who does not share the belief system in
>> question. If people responded to you in a hateful manner in
>> private, why bring it up on a public list?
>>
>> The only person I've seen behaving inappropriately in public, or in
>> a venue where I could become aware of it, in this matter, is you...
>>
>> > as to my ordination. you are making an assumption.
>>
>> What assumption am I making? That it's really easy to be ordained
>> by any of thousands of crackpot churches out there? That's not an
>> assumption, it's undeniable fact. It means that the simple
>> statement that someone is ordained clergy is effectively
>> meaningless, and therefore serves no purpose in this discussion.
>> Now, if you had said that you studied comparative religion at
>> such-and-such university, or studied at such-and-such seminary,
>> yeshiva, or whatever, we'd have the basis for a discussion of
>> whether your credentials as clergy give your word on a theological
>> issue any more credence than they would otherwise have. But the
>> simple statement of being ordained clergy is very nearly
>> meaningless without additional context.
>>
>> > your right, but is a closed minded view.
>>
>> Yes, I'm right, in this instance, at least, but it's not a
>> closed-minded view. Rather, it's a simple and accurate assessment
>> of conditions. If you had said something different, I'd be forced
>> to deal with different parameters, but you didn't, and I wasn't. I
>> drew the only conclusion possible under the circumstances. I am
>> normally extremely open-minded, but you have to give me something
>> to be open-minded about.
>>
>> > just my opinion
>>
>> My opinion is that you're spending a lot of time and effort on a
>> public list arguing with people about why you don't want to argue
>> in public. If that were actually the case, the sensible thing to do
>> would be to let it drop.
>>
>> Adamantius
>>
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
>><adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
>> > To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: Cannibalism , ritualistic or otherwise
>> > Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:53:56 -0400
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Also sprach el2iot2 at mail.com:
>> >> > I know it is controversial, but I suppost my position. I have
>> >> > studied extensively on the topic, and am ordained clergy.
>> >> >
> > >> > so, if you disagree or even if you agree, I will debate religious
>> >> > doctrine with anyone who so wishes. But not here. Personal
>> >> > conversation, off=line is always welcome. Joy
>> >> > Radei
>> >>
>> >> Uh huh. Thank you for your magnanimous consideration, but it wasn't
>> >> my intention to debate anything with anyone or even to respond to
>> >> what you wrote. I merely answered a civil question in what I hope
>> >> was a more-or-less civil manner.
>> >>
>> >> As for being ordained clergy, I'm glad to hear it, but the ease
>> >> with which such a credential can be obtained is such that it's
>> >> scarcely worth mentioning in this context.
>> >>
>> >> To be honest, I suspect you're looking for an argument, and I'm not
>> >> interested.
>> >>
>> >> Adamantius
>> >>
>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
>> >> <adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
>> >> > To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
>> >> > Subject: [Sca-cooks] RE: Cannibalism , ritualistic or otherwise
>> >> > Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 23:15:26 -0400
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Also sprach <kingstaste at mindspring.com>:
>> >> >> > Ana wrote:
>> >> >> >> Ana
>> >> >> >> PS: And the Eucharisty is a good example or ritual cannibalism.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > to which Huette responded quite strongly:
>> >> >> >> I am sorry, but you are very, very, very WRONG!!!! The
>> >> Eucharist is NOT
>> > > >> > ritual cannibalism!!!
>> >> >> >> Huette
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Well, I had to think long and hard about responding to this
>> >> >> one. I take it
>> >> >> > from Huette's response that she is a Christian of strong
>>belief. I
>> >> >> > generally shy away from getting into religious
>> >> conversations because that
>> >> >> > way lies madness (and usually hurt feelings). My initial
>> >> >> reaction was "but
>> >> >> > it is", and then thought that if that was all I said it
>> >> would be fanning
>> >> >> > those flames and it would turn into a shouting match really
>> >> >> quickly. I had
>> >> >> > to stop and consider if it was really food related, and I
>> >> >> think it is. That
>> >> >> > original communion took place at a supper, where there
>> >> was actual food
>> >> >> > present, or at least that is the accepted story now. Having
>> >> >> studied a bit
>> >> >> > about religious origins and knowing how things get changed
>> >> >> around, I suspect
>> >> >> > there are many other interpretations of what actually
>> >> >> happened. I suspect
>> >> >> > the symbology goes back to the examples Phlip stated and
>> >> the ideals of
>> >> >> > passing strength (and holiness) along with the
>>consumption of various
>> >> >> > aspects of the godhead. This certainly seems to be what is
>> >> >> happening in the
>> >> >> > modern celebration of communion. However, if the
>> >> arugment is that this
>> >> >> > ceremony is not ritual cannibalism, then there is some
>> >> other reason for
>> >> >> > taking in wine and bread and considering it a holy act.
>> >> The holiness is
>> >> >> > passed along into the act of sharing the food.
>> >> >> > So, I am interested in hearing thoughts on the
>>original event, the
>> >> >> > symbology behind it, how the idea of breaking bread at a
>> >> >> communal table fits
>> >> >> > into it, and other food-related aspects of the question.
>> >> >> However, I do hope
>> >> >> > that it can be kept from becoming a religious flame war,
>> >> as nothing will
>> >> >> > come of that in the furtherance of understanding eating
>> >> practices and the
>> >> >> > reasons they figure strongly into spiritual observances.
>> >> Let's keep it
>> >> >> > civil, shall we, and try to examine this question in a way
>> >> >> that we can all
>> >> >> > learn something?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It should be noted that I'm probably a heretic, but here
>>goes anyway.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> My feeling is that the cannibalism aspect is of secondary
>> >> >> importance to the sacrificial aspect. I'm not troubled by a lack of
>> >> >> faith in such mysterious phenomena as Transubstantiation because I
> > >> >> don't consider the question relevant: I don't _need_ to believe
>> >> >> that that bread and wine are flesh and blood to believe that good
>> >> >> is stronger than evil, that love is stronger than death, and that
>> >> >> sacrifice under the right circumstances can expiate sin.
>> >> >>
>> >> > > The Liturgies of the Word and of the Eucharist are full of
>> >> >> references to the Lamb of God, to the Paschal Sacrifice given to
>> >> >> humanity to return to God in atonement for sin. The Eucharist
>> >> >> liturgy also refers to eating the flesh and blood of Christ, or,
>> >> >> rather, to Jesus referring to the bread and wine as his body and
>> >> >> blood (presumably knowing full well he was to be the centerpiece of
>> >> >> a human sacrifice). He points out that these are given freely for
>> >> >> the salvation of humankind, and tells his disciples to commemorate
>> >> >> the sacrifice in his name. He doesn't exactly say, "Eat human flesh
>> >> >> and drink blood on Sundays," or even, unequivocally, that
>> >> >> subsequent celebrations of the Eucharist have to involve
>> >> >> consecration and transubstantiation. These are aspects introduced
>> >> >> by literal-minded popes and theologians, I assume.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> As Phlip said, there's also an aspect of sharing in the divinity of
>> >> >> the sacrifice akin to some cultures' view of cannibalism. But
>> >> >> without that sacrifice, the rest doesn't follow: Jesus is the
>> >> >> sacrificial offering, and the disciples, and later, the church, are
>> >> >> there to share in and commemorate the sacrifice.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hey, did anybody eat Aslan??? Huh? Argue me that one! ;-)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Adamantius
>> >> >> -- "S'ils n'ont pas de pain, vous fait-on dire, qu'ils mangent de
>> > > >> la brioche!" / "If there's no bread to be had, one has to say, let
>> >> >> them eat cake!"
>> >> >> -- attributed to an unnamed noblewoman by
>>Jean-Jacques Rousseau,
>> >> >> "Confessions", 1782
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "Why don't they get new jobs if they're unhappy -- or go on Prozac?"
>> >> >> -- Susan Sheybani, assistant to Bush campaign spokesman Terry
>> >> >> Holt, 07/29/04
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> >> Sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>> >> >> http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/sca-cooks
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > joy
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > ___________________________________________________________
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>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -- "S'ils n'ont pas de pain, vous fait-on dire, qu'ils mangent de
>> >> la brioche!" / "If there's no bread to be had, one has to say, let
>> >> them eat cake!"
>> >> -- attributed to an unnamed noblewoman by Jean-Jacques Rousseau,
>> >> "Confessions", 1782
>> >>
>> >> "Why don't they get new jobs if they're unhappy -- or go on Prozac?"
>> >> -- Susan Sheybani, assistant to Bush campaign spokesman Terry
>> >> Holt, 07/29/04
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Sca-cooks mailing list
>> >> Sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>> >> http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/sca-cooks
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > joy
>> >
>> > --
>> > ___________________________________________________________
>> > Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
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>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Sca-cooks mailing list
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>>
>>
>> -- "S'ils n'ont pas de pain, vous fait-on dire, qu'ils mangent de
>> la brioche!" / "If there's no bread to be had, one has to say, let
>> them eat cake!"
>> -- attributed to an unnamed noblewoman by Jean-Jacques Rousseau,
>> "Confessions", 1782
>>
>> "Why don't they get new jobs if they're unhappy -- or go on Prozac?"
>> -- Susan Sheybani, assistant to Bush campaign spokesman Terry
>>Holt, 07/29/04
>
>
>
>joy
>
>--
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--
"S'ils n'ont pas de pain, vous fait-on dire, qu'ils mangent de la
brioche!" / "If there's no bread to be had, one has to say, let them
eat cake!"
-- attributed to an unnamed noblewoman by Jean-Jacques
Rousseau, "Confessions", 1782
"Why don't they get new jobs if they're unhappy -- or go on Prozac?"
-- Susan Sheybani, assistant to Bush campaign spokesman Terry
Holt, 07/29/04
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