[Sca-cooks] RE: Cannibalism , ritualistic or otherwise
el2iot2 at mail.com
el2iot2 at mail.com
Fri Apr 22 18:41:17 PDT 2005
I did not make church doctrine. I only teach it.
The same way you state you teach foodhandleing. NO DIFFERENCE.
verification of church doctrine as addressed by your Questions about the statements I made can be found in original form in the "Nicene Creed" as establish in the first<AD325> and second<AD787> Nicene Councils.
You expect respect for your credentials, yet say mine can be from any "Crackpot orginization". I accepted yours on faith, that is the mark of a civilized conversation.
LAST POST ON THIS TOPIC>
I am done with it. See the "Nicene Creed" for farther information.
joy
Radei
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
To: el2iot2 at mail.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: Cannibalism , ritualistic or otherwise
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:46:49 -0400
>
> Also sprach el2iot2 at mail.com:
> > not true. not wanting an argument. but I have been viciously
> > attacked for my views. people who are not being rational, just
> > hateful. not intended to refer to you
>
> I'm sorry if anyone responded to you in a hateful manner, but I
> didn't. In fact, I didn't respond to you at all, nor did I see
> anyone else respond to you in a hateful manner. Two or three people
> disagreed with you, at least one of whom did so quite
> dispassionately as someone who does not share the belief system in
> question. If people responded to you in a hateful manner in
> private, why bring it up on a public list?
>
> The only person I've seen behaving inappropriately in public, or in
> a venue where I could become aware of it, in this matter, is you...
>
> > as to my ordination. you are making an assumption.
>
> What assumption am I making? That it's really easy to be ordained
> by any of thousands of crackpot churches out there? That's not an
> assumption, it's undeniable fact. It means that the simple
> statement that someone is ordained clergy is effectively
> meaningless, and therefore serves no purpose in this discussion.
> Now, if you had said that you studied comparative religion at
> such-and-such university, or studied at such-and-such seminary,
> yeshiva, or whatever, we'd have the basis for a discussion of
> whether your credentials as clergy give your word on a theological
> issue any more credence than they would otherwise have. But the
> simple statement of being ordained clergy is very nearly
> meaningless without additional context.
>
> > your right, but is a closed minded view.
>
> Yes, I'm right, in this instance, at least, but it's not a
> closed-minded view. Rather, it's a simple and accurate assessment
> of conditions. If you had said something different, I'd be forced
> to deal with different parameters, but you didn't, and I wasn't. I
> drew the only conclusion possible under the circumstances. I am
> normally extremely open-minded, but you have to give me something
> to be open-minded about.
>
> > just my opinion
>
> My opinion is that you're spending a lot of time and effort on a
> public list arguing with people about why you don't want to argue
> in public. If that were actually the case, the sensible thing to do
> would be to let it drop.
>
> Adamantius
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
> > To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: Cannibalism , ritualistic or otherwise
> > Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:53:56 -0400
> >
> >>
> >> Also sprach el2iot2 at mail.com:
> >> > I know it is controversial, but I suppost my position. I have
> >> > studied extensively on the topic, and am ordained clergy.
> >> >
> >> > so, if you disagree or even if you agree, I will debate religious
> >> > doctrine with anyone who so wishes. But not here. Personal
> >> > conversation, off=line is always welcome. Joy
> >> > Radei
> >>
> >> Uh huh. Thank you for your magnanimous consideration, but it wasn't
> >> my intention to debate anything with anyone or even to respond to
> >> what you wrote. I merely answered a civil question in what I hope
> >> was a more-or-less civil manner.
> >>
> >> As for being ordained clergy, I'm glad to hear it, but the ease
> >> with which such a credential can be obtained is such that it's
> >> scarcely worth mentioning in this context.
> >>
> >> To be honest, I suspect you're looking for an argument, and I'm not
> >> interested.
> >>
> >> Adamantius
> >>
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
> >> <adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
> >> > To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> >> > Subject: [Sca-cooks] RE: Cannibalism , ritualistic or otherwise
> >> > Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 23:15:26 -0400
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Also sprach <kingstaste at mindspring.com>:
> >> >> > Ana wrote:
> >> >> >> Ana
> >> >> >> PS: And the Eucharisty is a good example or ritual cannibalism.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > to which Huette responded quite strongly:
> >> >> >> I am sorry, but you are very, very, very WRONG!!!! The
> >> Eucharist is NOT
> > > >> > ritual cannibalism!!!
> >> >> >> Huette
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Well, I had to think long and hard about responding to this
> >> >> one. I take it
> >> >> > from Huette's response that she is a Christian of strong belief. I
> >> >> > generally shy away from getting into religious
> >> conversations because that
> >> >> > way lies madness (and usually hurt feelings). My initial
> >> >> reaction was "but
> >> >> > it is", and then thought that if that was all I said it
> >> would be fanning
> >> >> > those flames and it would turn into a shouting match really
> >> >> quickly. I had
> >> >> > to stop and consider if it was really food related, and I
> >> >> think it is. That
> >> >> > original communion took place at a supper, where there
> >> was actual food
> >> >> > present, or at least that is the accepted story now. Having
> >> >> studied a bit
> >> >> > about religious origins and knowing how things get changed
> >> >> around, I suspect
> >> >> > there are many other interpretations of what actually
> >> >> happened. I suspect
> >> >> > the symbology goes back to the examples Phlip stated and
> >> the ideals of
> >> >> > passing strength (and holiness) along with the consumption of various
> >> >> > aspects of the godhead. This certainly seems to be what is
> >> >> happening in the
> >> >> > modern celebration of communion. However, if the
> >> arugment is that this
> >> >> > ceremony is not ritual cannibalism, then there is some
> >> other reason for
> >> >> > taking in wine and bread and considering it a holy act.
> >> The holiness is
> >> >> > passed along into the act of sharing the food.
> >> >> > So, I am interested in hearing thoughts on the original event, the
> >> >> > symbology behind it, how the idea of breaking bread at a
> >> >> communal table fits
> >> >> > into it, and other food-related aspects of the question.
> >> >> However, I do hope
> >> >> > that it can be kept from becoming a religious flame war,
> >> as nothing will
> >> >> > come of that in the furtherance of understanding eating
> >> practices and the
> >> >> > reasons they figure strongly into spiritual observances.
> >> Let's keep it
> >> >> > civil, shall we, and try to examine this question in a way
> >> >> that we can all
> >> >> > learn something?
> >> >>
> >> >> It should be noted that I'm probably a heretic, but here goes anyway.
> >> >>
> >> >> My feeling is that the cannibalism aspect is of secondary
> >> >> importance to the sacrificial aspect. I'm not troubled by a lack of
> >> >> faith in such mysterious phenomena as Transubstantiation because I
> >> >> don't consider the question relevant: I don't _need_ to believe
> >> >> that that bread and wine are flesh and blood to believe that good
> >> >> is stronger than evil, that love is stronger than death, and that
> >> >> sacrifice under the right circumstances can expiate sin.
> >> >>
> >> > > The Liturgies of the Word and of the Eucharist are full of
> >> >> references to the Lamb of God, to the Paschal Sacrifice given to
> >> >> humanity to return to God in atonement for sin. The Eucharist
> >> >> liturgy also refers to eating the flesh and blood of Christ, or,
> >> >> rather, to Jesus referring to the bread and wine as his body and
> >> >> blood (presumably knowing full well he was to be the centerpiece of
> >> >> a human sacrifice). He points out that these are given freely for
> >> >> the salvation of humankind, and tells his disciples to commemorate
> >> >> the sacrifice in his name. He doesn't exactly say, "Eat human flesh
> >> >> and drink blood on Sundays," or even, unequivocally, that
> >> >> subsequent celebrations of the Eucharist have to involve
> >> >> consecration and transubstantiation. These are aspects introduced
> >> >> by literal-minded popes and theologians, I assume.
> >> >>
> >> >> As Phlip said, there's also an aspect of sharing in the divinity of
> >> >> the sacrifice akin to some cultures' view of cannibalism. But
> >> >> without that sacrifice, the rest doesn't follow: Jesus is the
> >> >> sacrificial offering, and the disciples, and later, the church, are
> >> >> there to share in and commemorate the sacrifice.
> >> >>
> >> >> Hey, did anybody eat Aslan??? Huh? Argue me that one! ;-)
> >> >>
> >> >> Adamantius
> >> >> -- "S'ils n'ont pas de pain, vous fait-on dire, qu'ils mangent de
> > > >> la brioche!" / "If there's no bread to be had, one has to say, let
> >> >> them eat cake!"
> >> >> -- attributed to an unnamed noblewoman by Jean-Jacques Rousseau,
> >> >> "Confessions", 1782
> >> >>
> >> >> "Why don't they get new jobs if they're unhappy -- or go on Prozac?"
> >> >> -- Susan Sheybani, assistant to Bush campaign spokesman Terry
> >> >> Holt, 07/29/04
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Sca-cooks mailing list
> >> >> Sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> >> >> http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/sca-cooks
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > joy
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > ___________________________________________________________
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> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> >> -- "S'ils n'ont pas de pain, vous fait-on dire, qu'ils mangent de
> >> la brioche!" / "If there's no bread to be had, one has to say, let
> >> them eat cake!"
> >> -- attributed to an unnamed noblewoman by Jean-Jacques Rousseau,
> >> "Confessions", 1782
> >>
> >> "Why don't they get new jobs if they're unhappy -- or go on Prozac?"
> >> -- Susan Sheybani, assistant to Bush campaign spokesman Terry
> >> Holt, 07/29/04
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Sca-cooks mailing list
> >> Sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> >> http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/sca-cooks
> >
> >
> >
> > joy
> >
> > --
> > ___________________________________________________________
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> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sca-cooks mailing list
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> > http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/sca-cooks
>
>
> -- "S'ils n'ont pas de pain, vous fait-on dire, qu'ils mangent de
> la brioche!" / "If there's no bread to be had, one has to say, let
> them eat cake!"
> -- attributed to an unnamed noblewoman by Jean-Jacques Rousseau,
> "Confessions", 1782
>
> "Why don't they get new jobs if they're unhappy -- or go on Prozac?"
> -- Susan Sheybani, assistant to Bush campaign spokesman Terry Holt, 07/29/04
joy
--
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