[Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns

[Stefan li Rous]

Adamantius replied to me with some good questions:
> >>  Yes, i think the wooden form makes more sense, rather than the pot.
> >>  Another point against using the outside of the pot is the shape of
> >> the
> >>  pot. Most pots are round, since that is a shape easily "thrown" on 
> a
> >>  potter's wheel. While I understand that a coffyn is rectangular in
> >>  shape, hence the transference of the word to the box we bury people
> >> in.
>
> Stefan, can you tell us more about your reasoning in reaching this
> conclusion? I'm not sure I buy the rectangular pie coffin idea: there
> are illustrations of what appear to be pies in various manuscripts,
> and they seem to me to mostly round or elliptical.
But are these pies, or pie shells, what they are calling "coffyns"?
I may also be influenced by some comments, which themselves were wrong, 
of medieval bread being round and medieval pies being square, compared 
to the reverse today.
> I think (and I could be wrong here) that we bury people in long,
> rectangular boxes because, well, a human body is oblong (spherical
> peers notwithstanding). A coffin, though, is simply a case, usually
> roughly in the shape of whatever it's supposed to contain, so it can
> be any shape and still be a coffin, as far as I know: the name does
> not directly imply oblong-ness.
Okay, this does make sense. Anyone have the OED definition handy for 
"coffyn" or "coffin"?

 From a previous discussion here, now in the Florilegium pies-msg file:
> Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 00:44:34 -0500
> From: "Bethany Public Library" <betpulib at ptdprolog.net>
> Subject: Re: SC - Traps?
>
> Actually, the crust in which the meat pies were often cooked could be
> referred to as Coffins in many English recipes. Sometimes one might
> receive the instruction to "raise" the coffin. Now, if  one were 
> deceased,
> that might prove an interesting feat. However, the coffin was actually 
> a
> box-shape (coffin being a generic word for Box in Middle English, 
> IIRC), and
> the contents of the coffin was usually fowl or pork or game, rarely 
> beef,
> though there are always exceptions. Naturally I don't have my sources 
> with
> me here at work, but I have looked into it in the past. Usta teach a 
> class
> on the subject. My favorite English butcher has departed this earth, 
> but she
> always made her Melton Mowbray pies square or rectangular, using just 
> such a
> , well, not a ring, but a bottomless rectangle with a rolled upper 
> edge.
> That's not evidence of period practice, however, just a fond memory.
>
> Raising the coffin referred to the process of using a stiff dough to 
> mold
> the shape: perhaps with the aid of a trap (mold), perhaps not. I know 
> that
> clay pot-making skills have always been handy for me, and sometimes I 
> use
> the outside of a handy container for the mold. We know those solid 
> pies were
> meant to stand on their own after cooking, without the aid of a pan or 
> form.
> You'd need a very hard-baking, stiff crust  to do that. It has been
> postulated that the crust, at least in earlier pies, was meant to be
> discarded and was used primarily for containment (I have even read a
> description of the crust in a modern discussion as part of those 
> ubiquitous
> "alms" that were given to the poor though I am not sure if this is
> verifiable). There is no doubt that the contents were the main "thing"
> however, and the crust may have served the purpose of a temporary 
> container,
> helping to preserve the food inside for a few more days of it's limited
> shelf life.

> Aoife

I also found this quote, and though it doesn't touch on the above 
question, it does point toward some blind-baking of pie shells or at 
least of hardening them some before filling:
> _A_Proper_newe_Booke_of_Cokerye_, in Duke Cariadoc's collection, often 
> makes
> some specific mention of what kind of pastry is used, what is in it, or
> (sometimes) even how to make it. Usually it's a short pastry. Here are 
> some
> examples, starting early in the book and proceding from there. Page 
> numbers
> are from the 1987 edition.
>
> "a Custarde" (p. 23/C7) says that the coffin must first be hardened in 
> the
> oven, and then is filled with a cream and sugar custard with raisins 
> and
> dates, and choice of butter or marrow. No further instructions for the 
> crust.

> >> So, if a mold is used, I suspect it would have been a simple wooden
> >> one. But I'm still not convinced that they would have gone to the
> >>  expense of a mold. Simply flatten out the dough into a sheet, cut
> >> slits
> >>  or a wedge at the corners, fold up the sides and meld the corners
> >>  together. What's the advantage of a mold over doing that?
>
> Well, the advantage of a mold in general (and I believe this was Da's
> point originally) was that with a mold, you can produce several
> coffins that are largely and functionally identical in a shorter
> period of time than you might produce them freestyle.
But would it have really been easier and shorter in time for someone 
who was experienced in making the pie dough and shells? Especially if 
you have to worry about the dough sticking to the mold? We've been 
talking about these stiff doughs not having any shortening, or very 
little, added so that they are physically stronger. Wouldn't the lack 
of this shortening also make the dough more likely to stick to the 
mold?

Does the use of molds fit with the medieval mindset as well? I'm not 
sure a precise, mechanical uniformity was of great interest, although 
things may have been turning that way toward the end of period. When do 
we see cookie molds start to be used?

Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra
    Mark S. Harris           Austin, Texas          
StefanliRous at austin.rr.com
**** See Stefan's Florilegium files at:  http://www.florilegium.org ****