[Sca-cooks] Re: coffyns

[Terry Decker]

>
>> Bear asked:
> My question is "what do we know?" I'm asking for facts , not speculation.
> I have found that when I gather facts and examine them, they produce a 
> very
> different picture from what "everyone knows."
>
> Well, "facts" are slippery things-The archeological record frequently 
> presents direct contradictions to what is "known" from documentary sources 
> (I'll give you some specific examples off list, if you like)..(Informed) 
> common sense is a more reliable guide to interpretation than you may 
> think..
>

I have no problem with contradictory facts, I deal with them regularly. 
When I come across contradictory interpretations, it usually means the 
people making them are not fully informed, have errored in their logic or 
are not evaluating all of the evidence (for whatever reason).  At such a 
time, it pays to review all of the evidence.

>>
> "Most of the recipes we reference are from noble households which had to 
> feed
> lots of people. They had considerable resources including well stocked
> kitchens and, often, well stocked bakeries....From the the woodcuts I've 
> seen baker's had the habit of using pans
> (trappes) for baking pastries. The medieval heat mass oven produces an 
> even
> heat matched only by a modern convection oven. Possibly the lack of a
> suitable pan, but I want to see the evidence. Professionals have and use
> professional tools, and the cooks and bakers of the Middle Ages were no
> exception."
>
>
> At the moment, most of the available evidence is circumstantial-Hence my 
> advice to look beyond the recipes to what is known about households  and 
> non professionals whose recipes were not preserved, so that you can draw 
> reasonable inferences! Please understand, I'm not arguing against 
> documentation  per se here, only against the complete dependence on 
> *limited* documentation which often gets in the way of historical 
> reconstruction, especially when documentation is done without   knowlege 
> of the relevant historical background. I simply do not believe that it's 
> possible to produce period food without any understanding of the period 
> beyond a recipe.
>

I didn't say I wanted "recipes".  I said I wanted "facts," which includes 
any historical, sociological, and economic information related to the 
question.  And I really do want the citation of sources for independent 
verification.  My personal goal when I do a paper or a re-creation is to be 
thorough enough to have it stand up to academic scrutiny.

You really need to define how you are using the term "period."  I terms of 
the question of raised coffins, I think we will need a finer temporal 
granularity than SCA period.

> ...and btw, a pan helps prevent even baking, even in a modern convection 
> oven, by conducting heat differently than the air outside the pan..:)
>

Forty years of baking experience tell me this is a minor problem.  Pans that 
don't evenly conduct heat get tossed or are used for something other than 
baking.  The problem that is difficult is an oven with cold spots.

>
> households > had 2-5 pans of different sizes, small to medium, very small 
> households
>> (widows, etc) had just one or two small pots, and wealthy households and
>> large farms with many workers had 8-12 pots, including 2-3 large ones and
>> a few special purpose pans. holidays and weddings were
>> community efforts: (loaning these pots was a social duty affirming 
>> communal relations
>> and mutual dependency, as well as a custom enabling suitable display for 
>> a
>> celebration, comparable to the borrowed lying-in gear gathered from
>> various noble connections you will see in the Lisle letters.)
>
> "Interesting, but of little import unless it can be demonstrated that 
> peasant
> families in the High Middle Ages baked raised coffins. The fact that 
> raised
> coffins appear lower on the social scale in Late Renaissance and Early
> Modern does not necessarily support their use at those social levels in 
> the
> Middle Ages."
>
>
> Unless you happen to find a petrified pie in a peasant privy, it may never 
> be "proved". However, it seems unreasonable to suppose that peasants in 
> 1330's had more or better equipment  than they did in the 1930s, given the 
> weight of the evidence against that theory. And even a well equipped 
> professional baker (who would probably not set up shop in a peasant 
> village) is unlikely to loan out his pans for goodwives to put their pies 
> in before they bring them in for baking. (a well documented practice, btw) 
> Thus, if they ate pies, and  literary references indicate that they did, 
> it's reasonable to suppose that they occasionally ate pies baked without 
> any of the special use pans their descendants didn't possess- which should 
> explain why I offered (and remembered!) that "circumstantial" info in the 
> first place.
>

You are not differentiating between a "raised coffin" and a "pie."  A pie 
can be made by rolling out the dough, putting the filling on half of it, 
then folding over the other half and sealing the edges.  Such pies survive 
as Cornish pasties, piroghis and the like.  They are easy to make, easy to 
take to the ovenkeeper or baker, and are cost effective.  You don't need any 
special pans for these kinds of pies, but they are not raised coffins.

The evidence I've seen suggests that raised coffins were the province of 
noble houses and moved down the economic scale to the gentry and middle 
class by the late 16th Century.  I've seen no evidence that peasants used 
raised coffins.

I'm well aware of the practices of professional bakers from around 1100 to 
1800.  Your argument still makes no brief for the use of raised coffins at 
the bakery.

>
> may I suggest: Baldwin, F.E., Sumptuary Legislation
> and Personal Regulation in England, John Hopkins Press, 1926.
>
> May I be permitted to envy you your library and your bibliography?
>
> gisele

Envy away.  That particular title is unfortunately on my "to read" list.

Bear