[Sca-cooks] FW: [TY] Re: Medieval and/or Middle Eastern Recipiescontaining Tomatoes

[Terry Decker]

Really?

In 1554 edition of Della historia e materia medicinale, Petrus Andreas 
Matthiolus observes that tomatoes were fried in oil with salt and pepper 
much like the eggplant.  A tomato recipe also appears in Gerard's Herball of 
1633.  While I will grant that the first tomato recipe published in a 
cookbook was in Lo salco alle moderna in 1692, it is obvious tomatoes were 
being used culinarily before that date.

It is also demostrable from the writings of Juan de Acosta and others that 
European knowledge of tomatoes was from the New World.  Given the 
interaction between Venice, Genoa and the Ottoman Empire, it is highly 
unlikely that tomatoes were indigineous to or even being used in Turkey 
without some knowledge of the fact appearing in Europe.  If there are 
Turkish primary sources contradicting this, then they need to be cited.

I would like to see the citations for the African "evidence" of 
pre-Columbian tomatoes and peanuts.  I suspect this is a case of liguistic 
transference rather than actual use.  Like the sweet potato, these were 
probably introduced into West Africa by the Portuguese slave trade in the 
mid to late 16th Century and local names were used for them.

I would also like to see the citation for the primary source for the recipe 
from the Turkish Minister of Culture.  Having spent over 30 years in 
government service, I am well aware that most people working in the public 
sector do not adhere to academic standards when writing PR pieces.  Since a 
primary source has not been mentioned, I think the Turkish government may 
have left that out of their little booklet, which raises the question of 
accuracy of transcription and translation.

The problem with this debate is that statements are made but citations of 
sources are not, reducing it from a serious discussion of history to a 
schoolyard squabble.

Bear

> This just keeps getting better and better....
> Christianna

>> Kinjal,
>>   You wrote:
>> However, that is not the extent of either 'medieval' or SCA
> cooking.
>> I fully agree that any recipe submitted in period competition from
>> these listed areas should be 'suspect', while all of these cultures
>> regulary offer dishes as 'medieval' with tomatoes -- it is
>> definitional, perhaps -- but also indicative of 'available
>> substititutes'.
>>
>>
>>      You refer above to the documentation I sent regarding Western
> European sources and the appearance of tomatoes after the discovery
> of the New World, and the fact that there are no recipes for
> tomatoes other than some very late-period ones in Italy and Spain
> until the late 1690's.  I am confused
>> therefore to your reference to "all of these cultures
>> regulary offer dishes as 'medieval' with tomatoes".  I know of no
> recipes in any of these cultures that contain anything that
> resembles a tomato within the medieval period.
>
>>>>> any search on medieval and tomato will produce dozens of
> recipies containing tomatoes and many restaurants offering 'medieval
> dishes', many with tomatoes.  WHile SCA definition of medieval does
> not necessarily agree with common definitions, it is reasonal to
> assume that a non-SCAdian person writing and lining tomatoes and
> medieval cooking represents a 'common view' whether correct or not.
>
>
>>  You go on to state:
>> Mid-Eastern and East-Asian recipies however, should be allowed to
>> contain 'tomato like' ingredience for period dishes. Please note --
>> I do not claim that the 'vegatable/fruit/berry' they used is
>> identical to what we now consider the 'tomato'. Many food items
> used in ancient times have been replaced with better, modern
>> alternatives.  African sources indicate knowledge of
> both 'tomatoes'and 'peanuts' in pre-Columbian times.  Views are
> mixed as to whether this indicated early travel between the
> continents, or that common food items were used that 'resembled or
> equated' these new items and have been replaced by the better
> strains.
>>
>>
> Again, I have to ask which sources you are citing.
>
> The let us back up.  The original question was about whether a
> tomato dish could be considered medieval, with some referemce to
> Columbus -- but no documentation.  As I have knowledge of Turkish
> culture and cooking that indicated that tomatoes were used in
> medieval times and much earlier, and offered the opinion that
> toitmato dishes could be medieval, but only if one looked to
> Anatolia.  I had now reason to doubt my teachers any more than you
> asked your grandmother where she learned to crack eggs when making
> pound cake.
>
> Next came undocumented responses with universal claims that "no
> medieval dish had tomatoes" and the like.  Now to counteract such a
> universal statement no extensive documentation is required -- only a
> single example, which I gave from the Turkish Ministry of Culture.
>
> Next came claims and documentation that this could not be true
> because some collection of cookbooks didn't include any such
> recipies, indicating that tomatoes were not used in England and
> Central Europe, but make no reference to Turkish cooking, one of the
> three 'grand cuisines' of the world.
>
> I took the time to start researching -- hoping to find some of my
> original sources of three years ago when I did document a period
> Turkish recipe for competition.  I found all sort of new lines of
> thoughts to share with all here who are interested -- expecting that
> they also are doing research.  It is not my job to teach people how
> to do a Google search.  I have offered enough ideas that should
> encourage people to look at the 'tomato guestion' more closely.  I
> don't care about the outcome -- the excitiement of the hunt in
> medieval inquiry is its own reward.  I am not trying to 'prove' that
> tomatoes of the Peruvian variety were used in Europe in the middle
> ages.  I will, however attempt to counter universal claims based on
> restricted evidence in all SCA matters -- cooking, weapons, archery,
> etc.
>
> If I decide to enter another Turkish dish in competition I will
> research and provide suitable documentation.  What I don't want is
> for some "knowledgeble judge' to rule it 'non-period' out of hand
> because of popular held opinions.
>
> I will be happy to share any valid sources I find with you off-list,
> but reserve the right to provide interesting info to the membership
> general that might inspire research in a completely new area.
>
> For the moment I will accept the word of the Turkish governemnt over
> some European food critic.  If you have evidence that they are
> fabricating these claims, please let me know.  "Domatesli" is a
> Turkish word meaning "with tomatoes" as in "Domatesli Pilav".
> Turkey is one othe largest producers of tomatoes in the world -- and
> I am sure they are all recognizable varieties now, either hybreds or
> imports -- but in medieval times we don't know -- which is why I
> counter the universal claim.
>
> I am admittedly biased here, long upset by the 'historic lies'I was
> taught in school about Eastern cultures.  While SCA is
> about 'recreation, rather than 'reenactment' I still wish for
> accuracy in all aspects of medieval history that effects SCA --
> cooking is but a minor part.
>
>
>> kinjal
>
>
>
>
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