[Sca-cooks] Funeral foods ...

Fri Apr 7 09:58:04 PDT 2006

Chuckle...

"Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius.magister at verizon.net> wrote:  
On Apr 7, 2006, at 12:24 PM, Judith L. Smith Adams wrote:

> So "meat" refers not even to flesh in a larger sense (nutmeat) but 
> to either the substantive element in a dish - nutmeat again, or to 
> the item or dish itself - sweetmeat, for example, but not *quite* 
> to the entire class "food."

I think that the simplest way to respond here is to say that 
sometimes, it _does_ simply mean "food". At least, maybe solid foods, 
unlike, say, a pottage that still may be made with meat in it. In 
some Anglo-Norman texts you've got references to viaundes (nowadays, 
more or less analogous to "meat"), char (again, as in charcuterie, 
"meat"), and mete ('food").

As in, take these ingredients and do such-and-such with them, and 
that is good meat...

> Don't think one would refer to all the foods served at a feast or 
> meal as "the meats."

Well, how about the concept of "that is my meat and that is my 
drink"? Or the fact that subtleties and other fancy dishes are 
brought in as entremets? Or, "the king is now sitting at his meat'?

> Which still leaves "baked meats" inconclusive about what it does 
> and does not mean...

Well, how about this: think about all the foods you can name that are 
medieval, and baked in an oven. Are they not, for the most part, 
largely similar?

> Love those semantics... really :)
>
> Judith

The fact that people have been discussing this for more than 24 
hours, having a good time without arguing, suggest that very 
thing... ;-)

Adamantius

>
> "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" 
> wrote:
>
> On Apr 6, 2006, at 11:51 PM, Judith L. Smith Adams wrote:
>
>> So we have "sweetmeats" and "nutmeats" and flesh-meat, fish-meat,
>> and ???? Any other such??!
>
> Fried meats are things like fritters, doughnuts, and pancakes
> (medieval recipes often advise us to put plenty of sugar on fried
> meats, and/or serve sugar work or candied spices with fried meats).
> Baked Meats or bakemeats we're discussing right now (roughly
> equivalent to pies and their relatives). Whitemeats are actually
> dairy products, like cheese, clotted cream, etc.
>
> "Meat" in reference to the edible muscle tissue of animals is
> actually a relatively recent concept, AFAIK.
>
> Adamantius
>
>>
>> Always secretly wanted to belong to one of those families that
>> grills everyone every evening at dinner about what they learned
>> that day... :)
>>
>> J
>>
>> Sue Clemenger wrote:
>> Well, for one, we do know that "meat" didn't necessarily mean
>> "flesh from a
>> critter" in the same way it does now, but was more of a term
>> indicating
>> "food." As in the old word "sweetmeats," which used to confuse me
>> to no
>> end. ;o)
>> So I'd be looking at those dishes of foods that were specifically
>> baked as
>> opposed to, say, a pottage done in some sort of over-the-stove-top
>> fashion.
>> Since Claudius and Gertrude were rulers (and hence, high status, at
>> least in
>> this theoretical Denmark), the dishes served at Hamlet, Sr's
>> funeral (and
>> their subsequent wedding) might reasonably be expected to be of a
>> higher
>> quality. The first things that come to my mind would be along the 
>> same
>> lines as those suggested by Master A--pies, meats, etc, baked in
>> "coffins"
>> (no pun intended) or "traps," and intended for use at more than one
>> meal....
>> --Maire, now irresistably reminded of an old FarSide cartoon,
>> featuring a
>> map of Northern Europe, with England saying "I smell something
>> rotten in
>> Denmark" (paraphrased), and, superimposed over the area in which
>> Denmark is
>> found, the skeleton of a dead fish. Funnier as a visual.....
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Judith L. Smith Adams"
>> To: "Cooks within the SCA"
>> Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 11:54 AM
>> Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Funeral foods ...
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sandra Kisner wrote: > >Well, the first thing that
>> comes to mind is Hamlet's little joke
>>>>> about Gertrude and Claudius' wedding being so soon after the
>>>>> death of
>>>>> Hamlet the Elder that they could recycle the leftover pies from 
>>>>> the
>>>>> funeral for the wedding feast...
>>>>>
>>>>> Adamantius
>>>>
>>>
>>> Just for clarification, the quote actually goes:
>>> "Thrift, thrift, Horatio! the funeral baked meats
>>> Did coldly furnish forth the marriage tables."
>>>
>>> I wasn't under the impression that specifically meant pies.
>>>
>>> Sandra
>>> So, scholars and cooks, what do we know about what Shakespeare
>>> meant -
>> or didn't - by "baked meats"??
>>>
>>> Curiously,
>>> Judith
>>>
>>>
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>
>
>
>
> "S'ils n'ont pas de pain, vous fait-on dire, qu'ils mangent de la
> brioche!" / "If there's no bread to be had, one has to say, let them
> eat cake!"
> -- attributed to an unnamed noblewoman by Jean-Jacques Rousseau, 
> "Confessions", 1782
>
> "Why don't they get new jobs if they're unhappy -- or go on Prozac?"
> -- Susan Sheybani, assistant to Bush campaign spokesman Terry 
> Holt, 07/29/04
>
>
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"S'ils n'ont pas de pain, vous fait-on dire, qu'ils mangent de la 
brioche!" / "If there's no bread to be had, one has to say, let them 
eat cake!"
-- attributed to an unnamed noblewoman by Jean-Jacques Rousseau, 
"Confessions", 1782

"Why don't they get new jobs if they're unhappy -- or go on Prozac?"
-- Susan Sheybani, assistant to Bush campaign spokesman Terry 
Holt, 07/29/04

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