[Sca-cooks] Not at all food related meta issue

[Tom Vincent]

It's only academic if you don't want things to change.
   
  Reputation means nothing if there are little to no consequences for bad behavior.  
   
  A title gained unethically sullies all with that title, should the unethical truth become known.
   
  I keep hearing the same shoddy 'defenses', but it comes down to this:  Is the current system authentic and does it provide quality crowns?  I'd say NO and NO.
   
  Winning a single tournament is no basis for selecting a crown.  Maybe for winning a ribbon or something, but six months on the throne?  Absurd.  I've met many SCAdians who were gracious, charming, authentic, had leadership skills and had solid organizational skills.  Why aren't those people crowns?  Just because they can win one particular stick bout?
   
  Why not rotate?  One reign is for Knights, the next for Pelicans, the next for Laurels?

  You mention a lot of the challenges and aggravations of being on the throne, but I notice that you didn't mention a single link between success in those challenges and winning one...particular...tourney.
   
  You mention trying to do the best you could as King, but I notice that you didn't mention any way that winning one particular tourney prepared or trained you for that.
   
  You mention fire, but we both know that fire has no mind, no spirit, no conscience.  Crowns are people that have to play by the same rules as everyone else (if those rules are enforced), they just get additional privileges not available to other members.  And how did they get them?  By winning one...particular...tourney.
   
  Yes, I believe that you CAN force good behavior on our crowns, just like we can force good behavior on all the other members:  By openly discussing and agreeing to a code of ethics and the consequences for failing to uphold them.
   
  Prayer is like using a rocking chair:  It'll give you something to do, but it won't get you anywhere.
   
  You can 'pretend' a Crown Tournament is a series of battles (sort of like the US Army's silly "Army of One" ad campaign?), but it isn't and doesn't claim to be.  'Army' is an aggregate or collective term and 'Commander' is a relative term, meaningless when applied to an individual.  So you were the Commander of an Army of One?  Please.
   
  As for the 'squirrel cage', it doesn't seem that you're willing to identify certain behaviors as unacceptable, even though you've referred to them in your post.  Do you find lying (about some relevant SCA matter) to be an acceptable trait for a crown?  No?  So, looks like we have something ethical that's out of the 'squirrel cage'.  
   
  How about cheating?  Sounds pretty unacceptable, since you mentioned it.  Let's add that to the list.
   
  You still cling to that misguided idea that 50 different people will have 50 different sides to an argument and that simply isn't true.  
   
  The idea isn't to define it in such detail that you identify all 50 individual definitions, but to find common ground.  If all 50 agree that a particular behavior is mandatory, that's a clear requirement.  If 3 do, not so much.  How about 25?  Well, maybe it's something that should be monitored.
   
  So you mention an ugly crown tourney.  What was ugly about it?  Were the fighters unethical?  Dishonorable?  Rhinohiding?  Cheating?  By what definition of 'ugly' were either of the fighters fit to be crown?  
   
  Oh, yeah...I forgot:  It had nothing to do with their fitness for the crown.  Nothing at all.
   
  And that's the problem.


  Duriel


Michael Gunter <countgunthar at hotmail.com> wrote:
  Well, this whole discussion has been amusing and a bit academic.
The Society is just that, a society. Any sociologist will tell you that
group dynamics tend to follow certain trends and it doesn't matter
if it is governments, families, villages, weird reenactment groups
or biker gangs.
Any position of leadership is a position of power, no matter how
nebulous that power is. From the President of the US to the
dungeon master, some are very good, some abuse it and many
will gain that power at all costs.

>So what's wrong with requiring SCA crowns to be charming and gracious? 
>They're 'paid' with praise, attention, gifts, crown-bunnies, etc.

There are several requirements to be Crown, often these are
loopholed and overlooked by contenders. If solid requirements
are overlooked, the rather esoteric graces can be quickly forgotten.
There are no checks and balances for good behaviour within our
Society other than your reputation. For many people reputation
is secondary to rank.

>Historically, *every* crown was good enough to enough people for enough 
>time...at least for a while. Again, I don't think anybody is promoting the 
>idea of cruel, hateful, rude, abusive crowns in the SCA. That's a bad 
>marketing strategy. It's a sanitized view of Medieval life, so why not 
>simply have a sanitized form of Medieval kings?

Well, I think I beg to differ on this point. I guess I can agree with
you that "every" crown was good enough for the people simply
because he had an army that made sure everyone liked him. And
the peasants of the time, like the general public now, really
didn't care one whit who was King as long as he left them alone
to live their own lives.

There are several Royal Peers subscribed, myself being one of them
so maybe we can give a better perspective about what sitting in
the Big Chair is all about.

The number one thing to remember is that nobody is a villan in their
own mind. When you become the Crown all of a sudden you get to
do the stuff you have always dreamed of the King doing in the SCA.
And often you think you are doing the best job you can. For some
people all they care about is winning the list and getting the title
and having people bow and scrape to you. Unfortunately you also
have to run the State, make sure you don't piss people off, attend
tedious meetings, be nice to people you don't like, and basically BE
the head of state. Many of the people who only want the title have
a hard time with this. Funny, often the same thing happend with
real life power grabbers too. For every bad SCA Crown I can point
to a Caligula, Nero, Ivan, Nixon, etc...

The power of SCA Crowns is true power, it may only exist in our
little group but it is nonetheless power. Why do people bow and
scrape to me because I won a tournament 5 years ago? Why do
guys who are total nerd losers in real life have ladies wanting to
have sex with them because they have a shiny hat? We change
policy and affect the lives of thousands of people with our actions.
With any power comes the opportunity to either use it or abuse
it. Fire is a very good thing. It heats our huts and cooks food and
converts iron to steel. It also burns, hurts, kills and destroys. Like
power, it is how it is used. And you can't tell fire to "be nice" you
have to control it. Some Crowns truly believe in what we do and
work their tails off to be what everyone wants a King and Queen
to be. Some Crowns want stuff, and babes and respect and the
opportunity to give stuff to their buddies and to hell with those
pansy rapier fighters or artisans or archers because we don't play
their game.

Guess what? That happens with elected leaders, real world Kings
and CEOs.

We cannot force good behavior on our Crowns, we can only
encourage it and pray something sticks. Being Crown is a major
pain in the butt as well. You are on call 24/7. Everything you do
is commented upon, shoot people know when you go to the
bathroom. Everyone expects you to solve their problems, you get
blamed if it rains! You have to arrange courts, attend every meeting,
handle problems, make constant decisions and try to look good doing
it. Some do it better than others and if it looks like they had an
easy reign it only means they kept the nasty stuff from getting out.

As far as alternate Crown Tournaments go, there have been a couple.
An Tir tried it once, it was determined a lot of fun and very interesting
and never do it again. There was the Principality list that was mentioned
earlier. And there may have been others. I know groups like Amptgard
have Wars where people gather warbands to fight and I don't think
their leaders have been any different from any other system.

Personally I look at Crown Tournament as a series of battles, my personal
skill is the "army" I was able to build. The tournament is a scaled down
"War of Roses" in which armies are destroyed and assimilated until it's
down to two commanders who have climbed to the top of the heap.
In war, you are never quite sure who's head will have the circlet and
who's will be on the block.

>Do anything to embarrass the organization and you're out, determined by 
>some committee or the BoD. You want to avoid bad behavior? Identify it 
>ahead of time and explain the consequences. New example comes up? Add it 
>to the consequences explanation.

Oh, Lordy! I can just imagine the squirrel cage that would be. The
problem is that we often have "morals" discussions about members
but all too often there are 50 different sides to the argument. The
ugliest Crown that I've ever seen was when the two fighters in the
Final had to win at all costs, "to save the kingdom from the other".

Honor and reputation are the only coins that really matter within the
Society. You an have all the rank in the world, have every award and
still get no respect from anyone if your behavior was that bad. There
have been a couple of dukes given lifetime banishments because of
their actions. Getting respect is the only thing that really matters
and respect only comes from your behavior.

Perhaps there could be a clause that the people decide if a Crown
who steps down be given Royal rank. But that could be a lot of
fun to do as well.

>You seem convinced that your fellow SCA members will back-stab, lie, cheat 
>& steal in order to gain victory at any price. I'm just not willing to 
>accept that.

Unfortunately, it does happen. Not as often as it seems to be because
of the fact that we talk about that more than the good ones. But,
yeah, people will lie, cheat and manipulate to gain even our pretend
power. A hell of a lot more actually believe in this game we play and
make it worth being here for. It's for those that this Society has
grown and thrived for 40 years!

>Duriel

Gunthar


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Tom Vincent
Demon Prince (retired)
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Want kids?  Do this horribly over-populated world a favor and adopt one that's already here.
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