[Sca-cooks] Silk Road timeframe, take 3

[Stefan li Rous]

Phlip replied to Morgana with:
> Well, you know, if you'd listen to the bloody answers, you might  
> discover
> that it might be ANY time of year, depending on how long each  
> individual trip
> took. Quite frankly, if you don't like the answers you're getting,  
> I suggest
> you do your own research, and find an answer that suits you.

Calm down everyone, please. I was hoping someone might answer here  
with more precise info, however I will point to some I have.  
Hopefully this will not make the situation worse.

The silk? is not going to arrive at just any time of the year. If  
something is traveling by ship, such as spices from India, the trade  
followed the monsoon winds. This puts a definite seasonal, probably  
almost monthly arrival time at one end or the other, depending upon  
whether you are going to or from the East. Since the fleets from  
Europe sailed to Egypt or the Middle East to pick up the cargos, this  
again happened on a seasonal basis. I don't remember if Morgana  
specified a century or not. When it was determined whether the trade  
was likely to go overland or by sea.

For some fairly good info on the travel by sea, see, in particular,  
Bear's comments in this file in the COMMERCE section of the Florilegium:
p-spice-trade-msg (30K)  9/ 4/04    The period spice trade. Routes,  
methods.

We had quite a discussion on travel times when we were discussing  
just how fresh the spices would arrive in Europe.

I will go ahead and post one of Bear's messages at the end of mine.

However, I seem to remember that Morgana may have been specifically  
talking about overland travel. Again the speed of this will depend  
upon the century. Some centuries it was unlikely or would at least  
take a lot longer because of the multitude of kingdoms on the way and  
which ones were at war with the others.

Travelogues may or may not be comparable to the time a merchant would  
take. The former are more likely to be taking side trips and  
sightseeing and not be familiar with the route. Presumably a merchant  
would have been over the route before and would not be interested in  
taking side jaunts.

>> Notice that how many years this covers is not relevant.
>>
>> Now if I seem cranky it's because I'm feeling very marginalzed by
>> this answer everything except my question.  (Maybe I should have
>> someone with titles ask all my questions.

I think your problem has nothing to do with titles or anything like  
that. There are a lot of people here who have titles that I am  
unaware of. At least for me, and I assume for many of the others,  
especially for those who aren't posting their own titles, they could  
care less.

I think the problem is that no one has an answer for you off the top  
of their heads or like me, even if they have something they may have  
to go look it up. Or, like me, what they have doesn't answer your  
questions exactly.

I think I *might* have a book or two that talks about the overland  
silk road trade routes. In fact, I'm pretty certain I do, thinking of  
one of them. But I haven't got the slightest idea just where it is  
right now and I haven't had time to search. This list has been  
extremely busy these last couple of weeks and I'm having trouble  
finding enough time to read the list and keep from falling further  
behind, much less catch up. 12 digests in one day????

Anyway, let me see if I can find that book or at least give you the  
info to perhaps find it.

Stefan

--------
THLord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra
    Mark S. Harris           Austin, Texas           
StefanliRous at austin.rr.com
**** See Stefan's Florilegium files at:  http://www.florilegium.org ****


> From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
>
> To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
>
> Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 12:23:50 -0500
>
> Subject: [Sca-cooks] spice trade transit time
>
>
>
> Thorvald, you wanted information about sea transit times in the  
> spice trade.
>
> I was a little puzzled that there wasn't much out there so I hit   
> my library
>
> and found some items.  The quotes were a little more than I wanted  
> to type,
>
> so I've paraphrased and tried to provide sources.  I've also tossed  
> in some
>
> information about the 15th Century Chinese trade and cargo packing.
>
>
>
> Arab Seafaring by George F. Hourani gives the following information.
>
>
>
> Quoting the Periplus of the Erythrean Sea and Pliny's Natural  
> Histories,
>
> Hourani provides that Hippalus, a Greek, was the first to use the  
> southwest
>
> monsoon (winter) to sail from Arabia to the Malabar coast, probably  
> in the
>
> 2nd Century BCE.  It was a fast but dangerous passage requiring  
> extensive
>
> blue water sailing.  I found this interesting because it is in direct
>
> opposition to a common idea that the Mediterranean sailors were  
> primarily
>
> coastal sailors spending nights on the shore.
>
>
>
>  Goods from the Mediterranean were shipped south on the Nile then
>
> transported either overland or by canal to Berenice on the Red Sea.
>
> Starting in July, it was 30 days sail to Cane (Cana or Kane in  
> Yemen).  With
>
> the monsoon it was 40 days sail from Ocealis (somewhere near Mocha,  
> Arabia)
>
> to Muziris ofn the Malabar coast of India.  Hourani identifies  
> Muziris as
>
> Mysore, but most other historians disagree.  For our purpose, it's  
> close
>
> enough.  So a maximum 70 days fast passage from Egypt to India in  
> the 1st
>
> Century with another month (my estimate) between Alexandria and  
> Berenice.
>
>
>
> Return voyages were made in summer when the prevailing winds are  
> from the
>
> northeast.
>
>
>
> The Akhbar al-Sin w-al-Hind (mid 9th Century) gives a sailing time  
> from
>
> Muscat to Canton of 120 days or:
>
>
>
> Musqat to Kulam Mali - 1 lunar month
>
> Kulam to Kalah Bar - 1 month
>
> Kalah to Sanf Fulaw - 1 month
>
> Sanf  Fulaw to Canton - 1 month
>
>
>
> Kulam Mali is a port on the Malabar coast.  Kalah Bar equates  
> roughly to
>
> Kedah, Malaya.  Sanf Fulaw was part of the Champa kingdom in eastern
>
> Indo-China (South Vietnam?)
>
>
>
> Average speed was just over 2 knots per hour.  Beginning the voyage in
>
> November or December and adding 2 months of trading time gives the  
> best
>
> conditions of wind and weather to arrive in Canton in April or May  
> with time
>
> to trade and catch the favorable northeast winds back.
>
>
>
> A passage from Aden to the Malabar coast by Buzurg ibn-Shahriyar  
> had an
>
> estimated average speed of between 3 and 4 knots.
>
>
>
> Al-Mariwazi (12th Century) place a days voyage with a fair wind at  
> about 150
>
> nautical miles or 6.2 knots.
>
>
>
> About the beginning of the 10th Century direct Arab trade with  
> China ceased.
>
> Trade between China and al-Islam continued at Kalah Bar.  Between  
> 1405 and
>
> 1433, the Chinese would send a trading fleet into the Indian Ocean  
> to trade
>
> with India, Arabia and Africa.  The voyages would last over a year  
> each and
>
> have supply ships, water tankers, a field army with cavalry, and trade
>
> ships, the largest vessel being over 400 feet in length (the Santa  
> Maria was
>
> only 98 feet).  The first fleet consisted of 317 ships.  Among the  
> shipping
>
> containers used by this fleet were thousands of large terracotta  
> jars and
>
> smaller glazed jars (similar to ginger jars) for storing spices and  
> to be
>
> traded.  Louise Levathes When China Ruled the Seas makes some  
> questionable
>
> comments, but it covers the fleet fairly accurately.  One of the  
> Chinese
>
> ships has been salvaged within the last few years and a documentary  
> made of
>
> the operation.
>
>
>
> Vasco da Gama's first voyage to India lasted less than 2 years.  On  
> November
>
> 22, 1497, he rounded the Cape of Good Hope and was off the Natal  
> coast on
>
> December 25th.  He spent some time along the coast of Africa and in
>
> Mozambique, then sailed to India.  IIRC, he returned to Portugal in  
> the Fall
>
> of 1498.  Some of his later voyages were slightly more than a year in
>
> length, but in most cases, da Gama was engaged in diplomacy or  
> combat.  With
>
> factors on the ground in Malabar to handle the purchasing, a round  
> trip
>
> could be made in under a year.
>
>
>
> So my best guess is that spices were no more than 1 year to 1 1/2  
> years old
>
> when they were sold in Europe with the possible exception of the Early
>
> Medieval period.  Of course, this doesn't address the issue of  
> shelf time
>
> after they were sold.
>
>
>
> Bear