[Sca-cooks] ISO carbonado references.
johnnae at mac.com
Tue Sep 2 10:41:51 PDT 2008
Here's a quick search and a few quotations:
Actually this relates back to another earlier question
regarding Gascoigne, George, Turberville, George, and Fouilloux, Jacques
The noble arte of venerie or hunting of 1575.
Because on page 128 of that book one finds:
You shall also present before the Prince or chiefe personage in field,
some fine sauce made with wine and spices in a fayre dishe vpon a
chafyngdishe and coles, to the end that as he or she doth behold the
huntesman breaking vp of the Deare, they may take theyr pleasure of the
sweete deintie morsels, and dresse some of them on the coles, makyng
them Carbonadies, and eating them with their sauce, reioycing and
recreating their noble mindes with rehersall whiche hounde hunted best,
and which huntesman hunted moste like a woodman:
The Morgan Library that just ended is here
So if you dig up a copy of The noble arte of venerie, it's in there;
there even may be an Illustration. I didn't check that yet.
The glossary at Prospect Press lists:
CARBONADE or to CARBONADO: is to cut and slash any cold joynt of Meat
and Salt it and then broil it before the Fire (Randle Holme). (Richard
CARBONADOE, 166-8: a method of cooking meat by broiling, for example on
a grid-iron before the fire or over hot embers, with prior slashing to
increase the speed with which heat penetrates the meat. In Coriolanus,
Shakespeare wrote: He scotcht him and notcht him like a Carbinado.
Some but not all of Mays examples are explicit about the prior
slashing. (Robert May, 1660/1685)
Holme and his The academy of armory are from 1688.
(See my TI article on Holme for more on what this book is.)
His exact text says:
is to cut and slash any cold joynt o Meat and Salt it and then broiled
it before the Fire: or Raw peeces of Meat thus broiled on the Fire, are
termed of some Carbonadoes (of Beef because that is most used so) others
call them Rashers of Beef.
Under CARBONADOE I've found it listed in a list in the book
Gargantua and Pantagruel
By François Rabelais, Thomas Urquhart, Peter Anthony Motteux
Published by Barnes & Noble Publishing, 2005
It appears there among the list that reads:
Slipslop. Grisp Pig. Greasy Slouch. Fatgut. Bray- mortar. Lick-sawce.
Hog's Foot. Hodgepodge. Carbonadoe. Sop in Pan. Pick-foul. Mustard-pot.
Calfs Pluck. Hogs Haslet. Chopt-phiz. Gallymaufrey. Gully Guts. Rinse
Pot. Drink-spiller. Pudding-bag. Pig-sticker. Cold Eel. Thorn
So you might look to Rabelais also.
Ran it through a variety of Dictionaries
John Florio A vvorlde of wordes, or Most copious, and exact dictionarie
in Italian and English, collected by Iohn Florio.
Florio lists the following:
* Brasuolare, to frie, or broyle in steakes or collops.
* Brasuole, steakes, collops, rashers, or car|bonados. Also a kinde
of hose or slops so called.
Carbonaia a cole-pit or place where coles are made.
Carbonare, * to besmeare as black as coles, to besmother.
* Carbonaro, a collier.
Carbonáta , a carbonada,meate broiled vpon the coles, a rasher.
* Incarbonare, to blacke, to besmeare with coales. Also to broile
vpon the coales, to make a carbonado ?
* Incarbonata, a ? carbonado of broyled meate, a rasher on the coales.
Carbonado, (Ital.) a rasher or collop of meat, a Gash in the flesh. is
how it is defined in The new world of English words, or, A general
dictionary from 1658.
Carbonado, I. a gash in the flesh; also a piece of flesh broild on the
Coals. An English dictionary explaining the difficult terms 1677.
CARBONADO, broiled meat. (Span., - L.) Properly a rasher.' Cotgrave,
s. v. carbonade, explains it by ' a carbonadoe, a rasher on the coales.'
Used by Shak. Cor. iv. 5. 199. Span, carbonado, carbonado, meat
broiled on a gridiron ; properly a pp. from a verb carbonar*, to
broil. Span, carbon, charcoal, coal. Lat. ace. carbonem, coal; from
nom. carbo. See above. Der. carbonado, verb ; K. Lear, ii. 2.41.
An Etymological Dictionary of the English Language
By Walter William Skeat
Published by Clarendon press, 1893
Another dictionary Huloets dictionarie newelye corrected from 1572 lists:
under broyled and burned the following:
* Broyled.Carbonatus, a, um.* Tostus, ta, tum. Bruslé, rosti. S.
* Burned lyke to a cole.Carbonatus, Carbunculatus, a, um. *
* Burned rostemeate on the spitte. Subuerbusta.
Oxford Premium Online lists this meaning
*carbonade* A carbonade is a Flemish dish of beef and onions braised in
beer. The word was probably borrowed into French from Italian
/carbonata/, which goes back ultimately to Latin /carb/, charcoal and
referred originally to the way in which the meat was grilled over
charcoal to seal it before being stewed.
"carbonade" /An A-Z of Food and Drink/. Ed. John Ayto. Oxford University
( viande grillée ) carbonado. in their French-English dictionary
And Now for OED---
*carbo'nado**,* sb.1 Obs. Also 7 carbinado, charbonado. [ad. Sp.
/carbonada/ `a Carbonado on the coles' (Minsheu) = Ital. /carbonata/,
Fr. /carbonade/ (Cotgrave); see -ado
] A piece of fish, flesh, or fowl, scored across and grilled or broiled
upon the coals. Often transf.
* *1586* Marlowe /1st Pt. Tamburl./ iv. iv. 47, I will make thee
slice the brawns of thy arms into carbonadoes and eat them.
* *1591* Lyly /Sapho/ ii. iii. 175 If I venture..to eate a rasher on
the coales, a carbonado.
* *1607* Shaks. /Cor./ iv. v. 199 He scotcht him, and notcht him
like a carbinado.
* *1651* Markham /Eng. Housw./ 70 Charbonadoes.
As a verb
v. arch. [f. carbonado
*1. * trans. To make a carbonado of; to score across and broil or grill.
* *1611* Shaks. /Wint. T./ iv. iv. 268 How she long'd to eate Adders
heads, and Toads carbonado'd.
* *C. 1630* Jackson /Creed/ iv. cvii. Wks. 1844 III. 105
Having..lastly his raw bulk broiled or carbonadoed quick.
*2. * transf. To cut, slash, hack.
* *1596* Nashe /Saffron Walden/ 20, I am the man will deliuer him to
thee to be scotcht and carbonadoed.
* *1605* Shaks. /Lear/ ii. ii. 41 Draw, you Rogue, or Ile so
carbonado your shanks.
*carbo'nadoed* ppl. a., *carbo'nadoing* vbl. sb.
* *1601* Shaks. /All's Well/ iv. v. 107 Your carbinado'd face.
* *1615* Markham /Eng. Housew./ ii. ii. (1668) 78 The manner of
A literature search turns up quotes like these:
then must they haue new deuises to procure appetite. If y^e wyne mislike
them, though they be ready to burst, yet must they eate some straunge
meate, as either a Carbonado, or the verie snuffe of a Candle, or a
pickled hering, and I wote not what else; so that to all seeming they
meane rather to murther themselues, than to haue any honestie in them.
Nowe let vs looke to the course of the Text, page 1036
from The sermons of M. Iohn Caluin vpon the fifth booke of Moses called
Deuteronomie Translated out of French by Arthur Golding. 1583
Yea, & more then that, in their Mu|saph or Alcoran they haue these
words: If men knew, how heauenly a thing it were to distribute almes,
they would not spare their owne flesh, but would euen teare the same,
and slice it into carbonadoes, to giue it vnto the poore. The Papists,
that are ouer|whelmed in superstition and idolatry, do hope (although
sacrilegiously) to be sa|ued by their almes-giuing.
Vaughan, William. The golden-groue moralized in three bookes. 1600
Away you I slington whitepot, hence you happerarse, you barly pudding
ful of magots, you broyld carbonado, auaunt, auaunt, auoide
Mephostophilus: shall Sim Eyre leaue to speake of you Ladie
Thomas Dekker. The shomakers holiday, 1600 Dekker uses the word quite
commonly as in later:
And alas, when our captiuated corps are yeelded to those scale|hunters,
then begins the Tamberlaine-Ignis to broile our barke, and carbonadoe
our well-compacted limbes. In heat has this hunter offended, but we will
torment him in another kinde. Oh, let our frosten nature benumme the
passages of his veynes, ...
Dekker, Thomas. The Owles almanacke prognosticating many strange
accidents from 1618
and here is even a book that carries it in the title.
London and the countrey carbonadoed and quartred into seuerall
characters. By D. Lupton.
Speaking of Pays de Vaux he said that it was a countrey where they made
goodly carbonadoe's of witches, and at that he laughed very loud. He
delighted much in jesting
Perrault, François, The devill of Mascon, 1658.
Huge numbers of recipes in Woolley's volumes and also in The
Accomplish'd lady's delight in 1675.
Knowing quite a bit about Markham and having read the bibliography about
him and his works, I suspect
a source might be Maison Rustique which he translated into English. It
would be someplace to look.
I also think that there is also a connection with the burning of
heretics, but that might well be the case of modern
scholars using the word to describe the ways in which people were
tortured and the marks that were left.
Hope this helps
Johnnae llyn Lewis
Ginny Beatty wrote:
> Hi all,
> I'm working on my article for Artes Draconis on carbonadoes/carbonados/charbonados. Markham (English Housewife) states that this particular cooking technique is French in its origin.
> However, the only French reference I've been able to find is a list of foods in a Francois Rabelais story from 1532.
> There is another English reference to Spain though. (A PAGEANT OF SPANISH HUMOURS. Wherin are naturally de- / scribed and lively portrayed the kinds / and quallities of a signior / of Spaine. /
> Translated out of Dutche by H.W. / Haud curo Inuidiam. / [imagen] / Imprinted at London by [J. Windet for] Iohn Wolfe, and are to be solde at / his shop in Popes-head Alley, neare to / the Exchange 1599. )
> http://www.ehumanista.ucsb.edu/projects/spanish_black_legend/02.htm snipped
> And there's a brief reference in Christopher Marlowe's Tamburlaine
> "Take it up Villaine and eat it, or I will make thee slice the brawnes of thy armes into carbonadoes, and eat them."
> I've done some extensive Google searching with limited success except for multiple citations from Markham and links to spiffy Brazilian black diamonds (also called carbonadoes). There's nothing in the Florilegium except for Markham's references to carbonadoes, as well a few menus here and there. So, I would like some help beyond that. If there's an actual French or Spanish source that discusses carbonados (and it's various spellings) , I would appreciate it.
> I can read French.
> mizginny at yahoo.com"She welcomed change; it was her answer to boredom."
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