[Sca-cooks] Clove defined and symbolism

[Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius]

On Apr 2, 2010, at 3:39 PM, Christiane wrote:

> Thank you for looking up these things; I had a feeling that the meaning of cloves changed in the recipe from early period to later period, as tastes changed.

Could be, but what evidence is there to suggest that studding foods with spice cloves, which we know to have been called by the same name as the flower, but in an earlier use of the term, became deprecated, as programmers now call it, in favor of the usage of the term for the flower?

In other words, while one could argue that the definition of the term "cloves gilofre" broadened to include the flower, is there really any evidence at all that the old usage simply went away?

I mean, we've got evidence that spice cloves were stuck into foods; Le Menagier speaks in the 14th century of the difference between studding foods with cloves or ginger sticks, and larding, which he states refers to fat. He also speaks of sticking a clove and a piece of ginger into each nut in his compost recipe. He doesn't appear to be referring to flowers, and we still have examples of using cloves to stud various pastries, baked hams, etc. Why would the practice vanish and then reappear?

> It would also make sense in an earlier period recipe to have a symbolism that was forgotten by later periods. And since the reference to pinks as "clove gillyflowers" didn't come until well into the Elizabethan era, and cooking with them tended to be a Jacobean/17th century practice, it makes even more sense that the original recipe was referring to the spice, not the flower.
> 
> Instead of just strewing the dish with cloves, I wonder if one would garnish it the dishes by just putting three cloves in the center of each serving, to represent the three nails of the Crucifixion. 

I believe even the 14th century Syrosye recipes instructs the cook to set therein cloves, which suggests a deliberate studding, and I'm not sure I buy the suggestion that flowers, no matter how nice they would look, taste or smell, would be covered by "set therein". "Lay thereon", maybe.  When I did a redaction for the dish (15 years ago, I might add!) it was for perhaps 375 servings. I used powdered cloves...

Another question that one might profit from asking is, when are these cherry dishes being eaten? I seem to recall one or more European sources referring to cherries being gathered in late June (feast of Saint John, I believe, which is consistent with my own experience of having a cherry tree in the back yard -- not that anything grows in New York City, of course! ;-) ). That probably _is_ within the same season for the flowers, but there is no real season for using the spice cloves. Under certain conditions that might make it logistically simpler.

I can certainly see how using the flowers is a nice alternative, and possibly one pursued in period. I just don't see how it's demonstrably a better interpretation.

Adamantius






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