[Sca-cooks] On Nattes VERY LONG

[Susanne Mayer]

 I know it is a bit late, but I had to go back to my disks (after a couple 
of computer crashes) to find the recipe and the discusion we hat at that 
time (originaly started off as marcipan mold disucssion in 1999):

The recipe from Nostradamus just mentiones oblaten/hostien but at the time I 
posted the recipe we also had a disusion about oblate/hostien an a vew 
recipes where posted on wafers /oblaten.

I will post the recipe and teh discusion we hat at that time here:

excerpts from  mails at this list in 1999 concerning oblaten/hostien/wafers:

this discusion started as at least two (welser and Nostradamus ) marcipan 
recipies bake the marcipan "cookies"/"cakelets"/tortelets on oblaten


Here are the old posts, I just include the stuff on oblaten:

Regards

Katharina

PS in Nostradamus I also found a Defrutum recipe, wich I will post as soon 
as I have time to translate (there is a n english translation of  the 
Elixiere also!)


snip-----

===========================================================================
From: Oughton, Karin (GEIS, Tirlan) [Karin.Oughton at geis.ge.com]
Sent: 08 March 1999 12:05
To: sca-cooks at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject: RE: SC - Oublies-LaRousse Gastronomie-LONG!


> In the beginning, these wafers, made out of any pastry
> remenants, were lft to bakery boys-it was their profit. On
> winter evenings they would offer them to passers-by and sell
> them from door to door; they sold 7 or 8 of these wafers at
> a time and this was called 'une main d'oublies'[a handfull
> of wafers].
>
 Interesting to hear the source of the wafers - 'oublier' is the
modern french verb to forget (probably spelt wrong however ) - so 'une main
d'oublies' would be 'a handful of forgotten bits' - a poetic way of
describing scraps : )

 karin

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From: Thomas Gloning [Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de]
Sent: 08 March 1999 18:14
To: sca-cooks at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject: SC - huge egg -- oblats -- germ. _gar_

I have a recipe for a huge egg from a 15th century Basel Mscr. on my
homepage:

http://www.uni-giessen.de/~g909 (chose ALTE KOCHBUECHER)

There are two parallel recipes, one in a Salzburg manuscript (ed. in
Jourdan/ Mueller, I believe), the other one in the "Mittelniederdt.
Kochbuch", published by Wiswe.

***

Concerning oblat as secular food, Moriz Heyne in his "Das deutsche
Nahrungswesen von den aeltesten geschichtlichen Zeiten bis zum 16.
Jahrhundert" (Leipzig 1901) wrote:

"Ausser dem gewoehnlichen Brote in den beschriebenen Arten hat es
ueberall und seit fruehester Zeit besonderes Backwerk gegeben, das dem
Kultus oder auch dem verfeinerten Geschmack diente. (...) Nach der
Christianisierung tritt das Abendmalsbrot auf, in fest bestimmter
Gestalt und, wie das Herrenbrot, nur von Weizen, auch ohne Sauerteig und
rund. Es fuehrt den fremden Namen ahd. _obelata_, _obelati_, mhd.
_oblat_, der auch auf Fladen umgedeutet wird, und _hostie_; und es kann
das erste auch ein duennes, weltliches Gebaeck bezeichnen" (p. 272;
there are some notes to the page and a continuatio on p. 273).

---

Early New High German _gar_ can mean, among other things, 'very'.
"gar klein" in the marzipan recipe means 'very little', 'to very fine
pieces'.

Cheers,
Thomas

snip------- 


============================================================================
From: Marilyn Traber [margali at 99main.com]
Sent: 07 March 1999 20:36
To: sca-cooks at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject: SC - Oublies-LaRousse Gastronomie-LONG!

Oublie[wafer]-Furetieres defines the oublie as a 'thin round
wafer cooked between two irons.' According to him, the word
oublie is a corruption of oblaye, derived from oblata, which
used to define the non-consecrated Eucharist host. It used
to be called oblee or oublie.

The most famous of these wafers were made in Lyons and it is
from this town that they were first rolled into a con. In
paris they used to be flat and insipid.

In the beginning, these wafers, made out of any pastry
remenants, were lft to bakery boys-it was their profit. On
winter evenings they would offer them to passers-by and sell
them from door to door; they sold 7 or 8 of these wafers at
a time and this was called 'une main d'oublies'[a handfull
of wafers].

The wafer-vendors played with their clients, casting dice
for their wares. Towards the middle of the eighteenth
centuries these vendors were called 'marchands de plaisir',
because their cry was 'voila le plaisir.'

Here is a recipe for making these wafers.

oublies a la parisienne [parisian wafers]
ingredients;
2 cups/250 grams of seived cake flour
1 1/4 cups/150 grams of castor[fine] sugar
2 eggs
4 tablespoons/65 grams melted butter
3 1/2 cups/7deciletres of milk
flavoring-orange-blossom water, lemon rind

Blend the flour, sugar, eggs and flavoring together in a
bowl.
When the mixture has been worked into a smooth paste, add
the milk, little by little:then
    melted butter and last of all, grated lemon rind.
Heat the wafer irons and grease them evenly, pour in a
spoonfull of the above mixture and
    cook on a very lively fire, turning the irons.
Take out the cooked wafer, roll it into a cone, round a
conical piece of wood, or, if you prefer, leave it flat.

Larousse Gastronomie
ed; Nina Froud/Charlotte Turgeon
trans; Nina Froud/Patience Gray/Maud Murdoch/Barbera Macrae
Taylor
The Hamlyn Publishing Group, Ltd
London,
1961

It sounds to me, from the description that they originated
as an enterprising batch of apprentices cooking the scraps
that were traditionally theirs and selling them, to perhaps
a batch of dough being made specifically into wafers, to
evolving into a batter wafer/pizzelle deal. It doesnt really
show how it corresponds with the host, as I seem to remember
reading a reference to the host being made in convents out
of flour, water and salt.

On the other hand, this is something we could do over a camp
fire at pennsic....anybody want to sell oublies camp to camp
in the evening?
margali


snip-----


===========================================================================
From: Philip & Susan Troy [troy at asan.com]
Sent: 07 March 1999 14:48
To: sca-cooks at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject: Re: SC - Puck's marzipan

Christina van Tets wrote:

> Take a [something] of wood or iron...
>
> My earlier post discusses why I think this is referring to a form;
> there can be little doubt about the rest of the phrase, as hulzin is
> a standard MHG word, which I have come across in several texts.

I don't recall reading your post that way; I must have misunderstood
you. I thought you had pointed out that the word "inger" seemed to refer
to compression, but had more of an idea of something being crushed or
pulverized (i.e. wafer crumbs?), rather than pressed in a mold. This
what comes of my trying to do too many things at once, I suppose.

> OK, even though no-one appears to have provided documentation for the
> use of Oblat as a secular item in period (unless I missed that post,
> in which case I offer my apologies), I think the examples of the same
>  kind of recipe from other countries indicate that I should stand
> down on this bit.  But it was fun playing devil's advocate, anyway.

I actually did type in the entire entry on oublies from the Larousse
Gastronomique, at which point Netscape promptly crashed on me, causing
me to lose my unsent and unsaved message. Basically it said that oublies
have an extremely ancient history as a basic food item in cultures as
old as ancient Greece, discussed possible and likely etymologies
(including the Latin use of the word "oblat", originally referring to a
small cake that could be bought for a specific coin by that name, later
coming to mean an offering, and later still to refer to an unconsecrated
host). The essay also says that oublies are still eaten in France, more
or less as what we'd call a biscuit or cookie.

I suspect that the use of an unconsecrated host, or other bread with a
potential for sacramental destiny, for secular purposes in period wasn't
regarded as any big deal. Certainly wine wasn't viewed in this way. I'd
say that use of the unconsecrated item would pretty much define it as a
secular use (the early parts of the Mass excepted), wouldn't it? Also,
I'd think that a culinary use for oblaten in post-reformation Germany
would suggest the word had secular connotations, just as modern
English-speaking Christians haven't exactly co-opted the use of the word
"wafer" for their exclusive use.

Wish I could supply more in the way of hard facts, though.

Adamantius
-- 
Phil & Susan Troy

troy at asan.com
============================================================================

snip---


============================================================================
From: Philip & Susan Troy [troy at asan.com]
Sent: 04 March 1999 13:35
To: sca-cooks at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject: Re: SC - Puck's marzipan

Ian van Tets wrote:
>
> OK, seems as though I'm the only one who was not aware of a secular
> use for the term Oblat.  Or are they what I know as Waffeln?

I'm in a position to say, emphatically and unequivocally, maybe. It depends.

> Do we know (and how?) that this term was used for a secular item
> within the period of reference?  I wouldn't use chalice to mean
> goblet, for example, or pyx to mean small plate.  And Oblat did (and
> still does) have other religious connotations too.

I think we can be reasonably sure that the term had secular uses,
especially in late-period Germany. I experienced a crash while typing in
my first response to your note, including the pertinent passage from the
Larousse Gastronomique, and this time I'll jusy say for now that there's
a short essay on what the French call oublies, describing them in some
detail, and also stating that unconsecrated hosts are also called oblaten.
And, of course, one might argue that using the term in connection with
unconsecrated hosts constitutes, by definition, a secular connotation.

snip---

===========================================================================
From: Nanna Rögnvaldardóttir [nannar at isholf.is]
Sent: 03 March 1999 21:41
To: sca-cooks at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject: Re: SC - Puck's marzipan


As it happens, I´ve got a (modern) Swedish recipe for "mandelspån", which
lists among the ingredients 2 sheets of oblats, 14 x 20 centimeters. The
recipe says: "Oblats are sold at some drugstores. If you don´t find them,
you can just roll the marzipan out into small rounds or ovals on baking
parchment. Bake them and let them cool on an even surface. They will not be
as decorative but they will taste the same."

Communion wafers are called oblats (oblater, oblátur) in the Scandinavian
languages but I´m not sure if that is what is meant here.

This recipe, by the way, calls for 200 grams of ground almonds, 1 1/2 c
confectioners´ sugar and 1 1/2-2 egg whites. You make a stiff dough, roll it
out on the oblat sheet, then "mark with a knife cookies that are around 2
1/2 x 7 cm. Cut through the oblat with a sharp knife or scissors as marked."

They are then placed draped over a buttered mold called "spånjärn" (like a
long, narrow metal sheet curved upwards in a half-circle, if you get my
meaning, sorry, can´t remember the English term), so the finished cookies
hafe a half-moon shape. The molds are of different sizes; I´ve got another
recipe that says the cookies should be 10 centimeters long (each end is
supposed to just reach the baking sheet on either side of the mold). If you
don´t have a mold, you can use an old rolling pin or something like that.

They are baked in a hot oven until golden and dry on the outside but still
moist in the center, cooled and spread with a sugar/water icing and
decorated with a mixture of candied citron, orange and almonds.

Nanna


snip---




snip---


And finaly the marcipan recipe I have posted:

As for marcipan on wafers / oblaten. I found two more recipies for that:

One is in 'Medieval Kitchen' by Redon et al. p203 #136 Marzipan tart by
Maestro Martino
The redaction is explaining a lot and even gives a recipie for making the
wafers.
I will post the original italian text as soon as I can.

The second one is in a German Translation from the works of Nostradamus (yes
the same, Astrologer, Doctor,...!)


Die Elexiere des Nostradamus
Original edition: Rowohlt Taschenbuch Verlag Aug. 1994      24900 - ISBN 3
499 13608 2

The french original by Nostradamus was printed in 1552 and there exists a
german translation from 1572 by Medicus Hieremias Martium. The original is
in the Austrian National Library in Vienna. The edition I have is slightly
modernised for better readability.

This is the text, the translation is a very quick and dirty version as I
post from work and don't have the time right now to do more:

WIE MAN
Marzipan macht



Das XXVIII. Kapitel

Nimm ein Pfund von der süßen
und feingeschälten Mandel / zerreibe sie gut in
einem Mörser aus Marmor mit einem halben
Pfund Madeirischem Zucker / und wenn du al-
les miteinander gut zerstoßen / und ein wenig
Rosenwasser darunter getanhast / damit sie nicht schlecht wer-
den / mach daraus feine runde / kleine Wecklein / oder Tört-
chen / lege sie auf zarte Hostien / oder Oblaten / und backe sie
 in einem Ofen / und nachdem sie halb gekocht oder gebacken
sind / nimm gestoßenen Zucker / knete ihn mit Eiweiß / und
ein wenig Pomeranzensaft / und achte darauf daß er schön
weich ist / und wenn die Torten fast gebacken sind / hebe sie
aus dem Ofen heraus / und streiche ein wenig Zucker mit einer
Feder darauf / und schiebe sie wiederum in den Ofen / damit
sie Farbe bekommen / und wenn sie gebacken sind / wirst du
finden / daß sie einen leiblichen und guten Geschmack haben.
Aber nimmst du Zuviel Zucker / so wird es teigig / und sehr
unlieblich / und unlustig zu essen. Willst du sie im Haus
backen / und sooft du willst mit geringer Mühe / so mache eine
eiserne Schaufel / die man am Herd gebraucht glühend / und
leg die Torten / oder Bisetten auf ein Bänkchen / oder eine
Tafel / und nimm das glühende Schäufelchen / fahr so lange
und viel / damit darüber / bis du siehst/ daß sie Farbe an-
nehmen / doch daß du es nicht anfaßt / und wenn sie auf der
einen Seite gebacken sind / kehere sie auf die andere Seite um /
und backe sie fertig / un wenn solches geschehen / so gib
ihnen die Farbe / wie vorher gesagt wurde / und auf diese
Weise gemacht sind sie besser / als wenn sie im Ofen gebacken
werden / weil sie so nicht verbrennen. Sie wird auch sonst auf
diese / wiese nicht / außerim Notfall zubereitet / sie wird viel
eher gebacken / als geformt. Diese Torten werden von Hermo-
lad Barbarus Marzipan genannt / und sie dienen zur Arznei /
und sind auch jederzeit lieblich zu essen. es kann aber gut
sein / daß etliche meiner spotten werden 7 daß ich eine so
geringe sache beschreibe / welche doch jeder Apotheker ma-
chen kann. Aber du sollst wissen / daß ich dieses viel mehr
des gemeinen Mannes wegen / getan habe / und wegen der
Weibspersonen / welche gern neue Dinge erfahren wollen /
und eigentlich fast wegen jedermann 7 und schließlich weil /
obwohl viele Apotheker viel können / dennoch dieses nicht
wissen. Aber merke / willst du eine liebliche / frische / und
geschmackvolle Torte machen / so backe sie / wenn die
Mandeln noch frisch sind / und erst kurze Zeit vom
Baum gepflückt wurden / versuchst du nun die
eine / oder die andere Art / so wirst du
einen großen Unterschied finden /
am geschmack / und an
der Güte.


How to make Marzipan:

Take a pound of sweet and skinned Almonds pound  them in a marble mortar 
with
half a pound of sugar from Madeira.
Add a little Rosewater, so they won't get bad and when you have pound  all
together,make small loafs or tarts and put them on fine / thin Hosts
( Hostien today is solely use for consecrated wafers)
or Oblaten (wafers) and back them in an oven.
After they are half cooked or baked take pound sugar
and knead it with egg white and  Pomeranzen (bitter orange) juice.
Take care to make the mixture soft, when the tarts are almost done,
 take them out and spread a little sugar on them with a feather.
Put them back in the oven, so the can get a little colour.
When they are done you will find they have a nice/lovely/sweet  and good
taste.
But if you take to much sugar it will get 'doughy'
and  very un-lovely and un-funny (literal translation of unlustig) to eat.
If you want to bake them in the House,
as often you like and without trouble,
 so make yourself and iron scoop, to be used red hot on the oven.
And lay the tartes or Bisetten (bites) on a little bench or a board and
take the red hot scoop,
pass over the tartes as long and as much, till you see that they have taken
colour, but do not touch.
when they are baked on the one side turn them over and finish the baking.
When that has happened so give them colour like I told before.
Made in this fashion they are better as when made in the oven, because they
won't be burnt.
It (The marzipan) will not be made in this fashion except in an emergency, 
it
is rather baked than formed.
This tartes are called Marzipan by Hermolad Barbarus,
they are used as Medication (Arznei) and they are also very nice /lovely to
eat.
It may be that some will mock me because I describe such a small thing which
any Apothecarian can make.
But you should know I do that because of the common man
and because of the females who want to know new things
and really because on everybody and finally because although many
Apothecarians can do much, this they don't know.
But take notice if you want to make a lovely fresh and tasty tarte
so bake it when the Almonds are fresh and are shortly plucked from the tree.
If you try it now in the one or the other fashion you will find a big
difference in the taste and quality.



Sorry for any spelling errors but it is 6 pm after a very hard day and
translation from strangely put German sentences is not what I do very often

Katharina
Drachenwald
Vienna Austria
============================================================================



----- Original Message ----- 
From: <sca-cooks-request at lists.ansteorra.org>
To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 12:37 AM
Subject: Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 50, Issue 90


> Send Sca-cooks mailing list submissions to
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> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 23:03:10 +0200
> From: "Susanne Mayer" <susanne.mayer5 at chello.at>
> To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Subject: [Sca-cooks] On Nattes
> Message-ID: <CEF236080B31445CAB7EF0CD47074BF0 at susilaptop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> I do know for a fact that you still find wafer irons (round about palm 
> sized
> sometimes with "pictures" espercialy if they were intended for comiunion
> wafers with overlong handles) at antique markets and high class flea 
> markets
> (pricy items and you need a wood fired stove for themn to work,...)
>
> I will have to check if there sis a oblaten recipe in Nostradamus (he does
> use it but I haven't had it in hand for quite some time).
>
>snip