SR - Principality Work Mirage (even longer)

[Lee Cavett]

Well. A few things to start.

I have been accused of being snide in print, and of making personal attacks and
flames disguised as debate. The first, I fear, is true; the second is not. I
admit that I overreacted to Ritter Dieterich’s post. The dismissal of an
opposing view with the phrase "What a bunch of hooie", coupled with a flood of
erroneous information about a subject I have a special interest in, caused me to
be a little more acerbic than I might otherwise have been. Yes, I admit it. I
gave in to the Dark Side. However, it was not my intent to offend anyone; nor
was it my intent, as Timo has suggested, to sway others by an appeal to their
emotions. When I make a personal attack, there will be no doubt in anyone’s mind
what it is. I will, therefore, endeavor to make this reply as factual as
possible.

Connor said:

>You spent your entire post telling us how much extra work the principality
officers would have(over >the present regional officers) and then said,

>>> And we get a proving ground for officers, too.

>>Got one. The Regional system. (If properly utilized.)

>You cannot have it both ways.  For the regional system to be a good proving
ground, the officers >must be doing a proportional amount of work to the kingdom
officers(i.e.-same amount of work, but >for fewer people).

>Principality Officers will do the same amount of work as the Kingdom
>Officers, but for fewer people (with the possible exception of the
>Chronicler).  If the Regional Officers do this much work, then the
>regional system is a good proving ground.
>But, throughout your post you keep saying that the Regional Officers
>are doing much less work than Principality Officers would do.  That
>cannot be much of a proving ground, the proportional lighter work
>load would still leave them unprepared for a Kingdom Office.

I agree with your analysis, for the situation _as it presently exists_. It is
true that currently, Regional officers do far less work than a Principality
officer would, and that they are, therefore, less well prepared for a Kingdom
office than a Principality officer would be. However, the Regional officer
system could easily be made to act as such a proving ground, by the simple
expedient of decentralizing the offices. This is why I added the caveat about
"If utilized properly." Also, I was not previously aware that anyone was
concerned about a lack of experience among Kingdom officers - certainly, no one
has approached me with any such concerns.

>Whether or not there is more work is not the issue.  The issue is whether or
not we
>are willing to do that work.  I, for one, am willing to do my part.

And Dieterich said:

> I'll be darned- with incentive comes volounteers.  How the hell did that
happen?

This is one that may get me in trouble, but I feel it needs to be noted. In my
experience, it has been difficult to find volunteers for offices - not just
heralds, but several others - on all levels, whether local, regional, or
Kingdom. You, Connor, have recently been a Baronial officer, and I know you are
willing,  but you have an idea of what I am talking about. If there are so many
people who are willing to do the work, but only if they get  "incentive" -
awards - for doing the work, then perhaps their motives need to be called into
question. I see a great number of people who do a great deal of work, and don’t
seem to be in it for the awards. But they get spread pretty thin.

Dieterich said:

>>Hmmm. Seems to me you are making the assumption that the proposed principality
borders will be >>the ones _you_ want. Kind of exclusionary.

>Just going with the most popular boundry proposal that came out of the meeting
which you were >invited to speak your opinion at but failed to.  I believe the
poll was 52 for with the next closest >being 31 for.  Had you paid attention you
would have noted that my personal proposal included a
>good deal more than the one most favored.  But you didn't.
(snip)
>Had you been present/cogitative at the meeting
To which Timo added:
> We had an excellent meeting at Tempio, why didnt you come?

Got me there. I was in Houston, fulfilling a previous promise that was called in
at the last minute, otherwise I would indeed have been in Tempio. I was
misinformed as to the authorship of certain proposals. However, I am told that I
would have missed a portion of the P. meeting anyway, as I would have been at
the College of Heralds meeting. I understand there was a scheduling conflict.
However, as to my "exclusionary" remark, I still feel that the "big comma"
proposal is a recipe for divisiveness and bad feelings.

Dieterich continued:

>>> Now the office of the currently regional herald vs. the proposed
Principality herald...
>>
>>I would suggest, dear Ritter, that next time you want to make generalizations
about an office, >>you contact the officer involved and find out what it is they
do.

>Only going by what I've *personally seen her do*.  Yes, that's right...
everytime I've seen her >working, it's been going over badges, devices, and
names in a public forum and perhaps it's been >coincidence, but submissions from
the southern region were there present.  I'm so sorry to hear that >the work she
is doing is not being accredited to her.  Perhaps it's simply racked up to
kingdom >commenting, but gosh, that must mean that she *does* in fact, see all
the ones from our region.  By >God, Im right!

This may be chalked up to confusion. If you refer to HL Gwenllian, she is not
now and has not been, for at least the last three years, Regional Herald; that
office is held, as of April 1, by HE Lorraine Deerslayer, who does occasionally
sit in on College of Heralds meetings, but does not count it among the required
duties of the office. HL Gwenllian is Asterisk Herald, my primary kingdom
deputy; she processes submissions within kingdom, and sees all the Southern
Region submissions - but otherwise has nothing to do with the administration of
the region.

>Later in your post you continue...

>>> at each event
>>
>>of which you propose to add at least four

>Had you been present/cogitative at the meeting you would have noted that *no*
extra events need >be added at all.  You see, you currently are allowed
'regional' events...

But there are none on the calendar, and have not been for a very long time.
Despite the fact that regional events are "allowed", there is no space reserved
for them - they have to be squeezed in just like any ol’ branch event. Come to
think of it, they don’t even have as much status as the baronial "perpetual
events", which at least get the same weekend every year. Any Principality events
would have to be _added_.

>and the coronet list/stepping up can be done on the same weekend as it is done
in the West.

They do a lot of things in the West that we do differently here. I believe
Constance addressed this issue.

>Look it up... fascinating.  Oh wait, you've not lived in a principality before,
have you?

Nope. I have lived in Ansteorra for over six years, though.

Then we discussed the OP a bit:

>>So, you're planning to not keep track of kingdom awards after the principality
is formed?

>Gosh, Donal, I had no idea that it was the Principality Heralds job to keep
track of the entire >kingdoms people; I was under the misinformed assumption
that the *Principality* Herald would track >people in the _*Principality*_.
'Duh' on my part.

That’s true. Your mistake lies in two assumptions: first, that no resident of
the principality would ever receive an award from the Kingdom _outside_ the
principality, and second, that no Ansteorran would ever move into the
principality, necessitating a search of the Kingdom OP for their awards.

>Jonathan and Clarissa would be glad I've got people interested in helping - and
*that's* something >I'd bank on.  They both, incidentally, are on the list, and
if they took offense at what I'd said, I'm >SURE they would have told me

Jonathan was in Mendersham this weekend, and reads the list only occasionally. I
doubt, that he would object to me speaking for him in this case.  I _was_ out of
line in speaking for Clarissa. However, having put out a draft edition of the
kingdom OP myself, and helped with an earlier and later edition, I think that I
have a better idea of the work involved.

Other issues:

>>Treasurer is the period term.
>Correcting our diction?  Petty, petty.  And rude, too.  I believe my sentiment
was felt so I don't feel >too bad about it.  Since we're so open about our
period criticism, I'll be sure and help you out when >I can, too... garb,
armor... whatever.

To which Timo added:
>Thanks for letting everyone know the period term. Since the period term is not
in use, and the one >that *is* in use was used (in SCA context) correctly, why
is it that we do not use "treasurer"?

It is. Check the paperwork. Every official mention of the office refers to it as
"treasurer". My correction was merely in line with the current practice of using
period terms such as "Steward" and "Cook" in lieu of such SCA-isms as "Autocrat"
and "Feast-o-crat".

This post is becoming entirely too long, so I will just include the relevant
personal stuff:

>Your implication here is that I am the 'some' in question; okay, Donal, what
have I done?  What >offices have I held?  What do you know about me at all,
Donal?  Heck Donal, I'll bet you don't even >know how long I've been in? What is
your sum experience, Donal?  You take it for granted that mine >is limited, I'm
sure, but what have you done outside of the Heralds office? (I’m not being
aggressive >here, either... I really want to know)

Okay. My experience with holding office in the SCA is limited to various
positions in the College of Heralds. I have been a branch herald, a kingdom
deputy, and Kingdom Principal Herald; I have been continuously active in that
respect, never spending more than two months without holding an office of some
sort.  I have commented (sporadically) with the Laurel College of Arms. I have
autocra^H^H^H^H^H^H^H been steward at branch events, helped set up and take down
other events, run games at still other events; I have been a fighter (again,
sporadically) for about six years, though I have a tendency to injure myself off
the field, and having to sit out for a few months; I have participated in work
weekends at Raven’s Fort and TRF; I have entered Arts and Sciences competitions,
and donated prizes, though not for several years; I have fought in Crown
Tourney, though not as successfully as you. I have been spouse to a branch
seneschal (I am sure you know from your own experience that an officer’s spouse
shares in the workload :) ). I never heard of you before moving from Stargate to
Bryn Gwlad; since then, I have come to know of you as an accomplished fighter,
recently knighted, and a well-known costumer, particularly in your chosen period
and culture (13th-14th C. Germany, I think.). I do not know what offices you
have held, though I know that you must have held at least one, as you are
allowed to fight in Crown Tourney; I have not interacted with you in any
officer-to-officer capacity, and only twice in performing the duties of my
office for you. My implication was _not_ that you lacked experience in the two
offices I refused to comment on; it was that _I_ lacked that experience, and
would not repeat your mistake in commenting without that experience.

One last reply to Dieterich:
>>> >Would it provide us the additional pomp of Principality arms, coronets,
courts, and guards?
>>
>>No, it would not provide a shiny distraction from the fact that two baronies
within 90 miles of each >>other have no more in common than two baronies at
opposite ends of the kingdom.

>Says *you*!  Just because you don't have anything in common doesn't mean the
rest of us don't.  >My dearest friends in the sca live in three places:
Ravensfort, Bjornsborg, and Bryn Gwylad.  And, >not to boast, I have a large
circle of friends.  And for the most part we all enjoy similar styles of
>play.  Sorry you feel so left out... perhaps, when this dust clears, I can
introduce you to some folks >from the other groups on a personal level rather
than just the heraldic level.

Not to boast, I also have a large circle of friends. I have dear friends, whom I
consider part of my family, in the East, in the Middle, in Trimaris, in
Meridies, in the Outlands, In An Tir; here in Ansteorra, I have such close
friends in Stargate, Namron, Ffynnon Gath, and points between. That does not
mean I think that all the styles of play in the branches I mentioned are close
enough to form a group identity, other than the one we share as Ansteorrans. I
am all in favor of such an identity; I just don’t think we have it yet; and I
think the identity should come before the attempt to form a branch.

>Form a unit at war?  Oh, like we did?  That was us fighting next to Bjornsborg
in the southern army, >wasn't it?  With Ravensfort on the other side?  Perhaps
it was just my imagination.

Not your imagination; I remember quite distinctly Bjornsborg peeling off to one
side, Raven’s Fort to the other, half our newer shieldmen drifting away with
Bjornsborg. Not quite what I was thinking of as a unit. (That is _not_ an attack
on either one of those baronies, who fought quite well; it was an observation
regarding lack of coordination among three groups who supposedly are part of a
group identity.)

By the way, I don’t do private flame wars; if I have a difference of opinion
with you and think you can be convinced by argument, I will argue the same in
public as in private.

Donal


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