[Youth-combat] RE: [Elfsea] RE: [Steppes]Fwd:[Ansteorra]YouthfulCombatants

Trish Kvamme ladyoftherose at hotmail.com
Wed Jan 12 12:52:25 PST 2005 

Your Excellency I totally understand your point, believe me.

But if we curb the ability for the worst case scenario to happen, then we 
take the privilage away from the kids who do have the ability or descretion 
before 18.

It is going to be one of those issues like driving a car, the parents have 
to sign the permission before 18, and in the SCA at least we have constant 
checks and balances in the form of our Chivalry, our Marshallate officers 
and other parents if we see something potentially bad.

A kid drives off at 16 and turns the corner we dont see him, but at a 
fighter practice, a war, a tournament, we will all see him/her.  And I know 
that I expect feed back from the community if there is a problem, I hope 
other parents will as well.

I have lived in 2 Kingdoms where the 16 plus were allowed to fight, and 1 
that has not.  I never saw an incident in my tenure in the SCA but it doesnt 
mean they don't happen.

The crown passed the law so what we need to do as a community is watch our 
brave young fighters and correct them like we would any other, but in 
addition we need to communicate with their parents most expecially if we 
feel the youth is not playing safe.

Your post was very well thought out and I appreciate it as a parent very 
much.

Larissa


>From: "McFarland, Glenn" <glennmc at ti.com>
>Reply-To: "Barony of Steppes - SCA, Inc." <steppes at ansteorra.org>
>To: "Barony of Steppes - SCA, Inc." <steppes at ansteorra.org>,        
><steppes.seneschal at gmail.com>
>CC: elfsea at ansteorra.org, youth-combat at ansteorra.org
>Subject: RE: [Youth-combat] RE: [Elfsea] RE: 
>[Steppes]Fwd:[Ansteorra]YouthfulCombatants
>Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:45:07 -0600
>
>Your Grace,
>
>I've put my time in on the field but I do not have kids.
>
>You and your children are the best example for the good side of
>this issue. You are long term dedicated SCA and both fighters. You are well
>aware of the dangers and your children's capabilities with regards
>to handling combat. I trust your judgment that your kids are ready
>and able to handle heavy combat against adults. As dedicated SCA folk
>you are highly unlikely to sue the SCA or individuals involved and your
>waiver of liability is truly informed consent.
>
>My concern, and the concern of many I suspect, is those folks on the other
>end of the spectrum. There are those who would sue should some 30 something
>adult harm their little boy Timmy by whacking them with a weapon. They 
>don't
>really know, and will certainly claim, the real risks they were allowing
>their child to take. How much protection does the process we are following
>provide us as individuals and as organizations from such suits? How much
>will we end up spending even if we win? How does it read in the newspaper?
>What's Child Protective Services going to think when 16yr old Jane is sent
>to the school nurse with bruises etc. Are our armor and combat rules 
>adequate
>and consistently enforced to withstand a court case with the charge that we
>allowed someone's "baby" to go out in a dangerous situation without 
>adequate
>safeguards?
>
>It may well be that these fears are groundless and we have it are covered 
>100%.
>Many are not unique and are also risks with any fighter but we are adding
>the adult vs. non-adult into the mix. I don't know that the risks to us as 
>individuals
>and to the SCA and its groups outweigh the rewards that the few 16 and 17 
>year olds
>(and their families) who will take up arms get.
>
>Best regards,
>Thorkel
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: steppes-bounces+glennmc=ti.com at ansteorra.org
>[mailto:steppes-bounces+glennmc=ti.com at ansteorra.org]On Behalf Of Trish
>Kvamme
>Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 10:53 AM
>To: steppes.seneschal at gmail.com; steppes at ansteorra.org
>Cc: elfsea at ansteorra.org; dukepmg at aol.com; youth-combat at ansteorra.org
>Subject: Re: [Youth-combat] RE: [Elfsea] RE: [Steppes]
>Fwd:[Ansteorra]YouthfulCombatants
>
>
>Not to hurt anyone's feelings in any way regarding their opinion, but I am
>mildly curious as to the following.
>
>1.  How many people who are adverse to these teens fighting ever fought
>heavy weapons/chivarlic combat?
>
>2.  Of those who have, how many actually fought in a war?
>
>3.  And of those who disagree, how many actually have children or teenaged
>children?
>
>4.  How many of them have fought in an acutal battle in a shield wall or
>charge?
>
>Just curious.
>
>Larissa
>
> >From: Steppes Seneschal <steppes.seneschal at gmail.com>
> >Reply-To: Steppes Seneschal <steppes.seneschal at gmail.com>,        "Barony
> >of Steppes - SCA, Inc." <steppes at ansteorra.org>
> >To: "Barony of Steppes - SCA, Inc." <steppes at ansteorra.org>
> >CC: dukepmg at aol.com, youth-combat at ansteorra.org, elfsea at ansteorra.org
> >Subject: Re: [Youth-combat] RE: [Elfsea] RE: [Steppes] Fwd:
> >[Ansteorra]YouthfulCombatants
> >Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 01:06:58 -0600
> >
> >I agree with you completely.
> >
> >
> >On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:48:02 -0600, Michael of Langley
> ><michaeloflangley at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > To all concerned,
> > >
> > > My concern is that during a melee, such as Gulf Wars, the younger
> >fighters
> > > will be indistinguishable from older more seasoned fighters.  At Gulf
> >Wars
> > > last year, during the spear tournament, an Ansteorran combatant had 
>his
> > > chinstrap broken and the helmet hit him in his face when he took a 
>heavy
> > > spear thrust.  This was not in a grand melee, but a two against two
> >spear
> > > tournament.  Our KING took the blow well...
> > >
> > > Now, lets think about a 16 year old, who is still growing, taking a 
>face
> > > shot from a fiberglass spear.  Unfortunately, our Earl Marshall will 
>not
> >be
> > > there to make sure that the fighters are going to take it easy on them
> >and
> > > not bruise them too much.  The younger fighters, still maturing, will 
>be
> >at
> > > the mercy of the opposing force - I stress the "still maturing" part.
> > >
> > > We wear pads now and have parents attend the tournaments for a two 
>fold
> > > reason, to avoid unnecessary injuries and law suits and to get the
> >parents
> > > more involved with their youth combatants.  A lawsuit can be placed
> >against
> > > anyone for any reason - waiver or not (and while it may not stand up 
>in
> > > court, it must still be defended against).  Is it worth it? I can hear
> >it
> > > now when the first serious injury occurs - "You said he was ready and
> >that
> > > big guy just hit him way to hard!!! Who is going to pay all these 
>doctor
> > > bills! Why didn't someone stop him! I would have stopped him if I was
> >here
> > > watching (but because I was on merchants row because I'm not REQUIRED 
>to
> >be
> > > here - I was off shopping for my wife/husband)."
> > >
> > > Whether we want to acknowledge it or not, we have fighters with
> >prejudices -
> > > "I'm gonna smack every (girl/Saracen/crusader/guy/archer/whatever) as
> >hard
> > > as I can when I see them, because they shouldn't be on the field".
> >After
> > > the blow is thrown, "Oh, I'm so sorry - I didn't mean to hit you that
> >hard!"
> > > rarely makes up for it.  Yes, we are always chivalrous and say "Its ok 
>-
> >no
> > > problem - groan..." but inside, we're secretly hoping they get creamed
> >on
> > > the field and we get to see it (be honest).
> > >
> > > What will we say when a 16 year old is carried off with broken ribs, 
>or
> >a
> > > ruptured spleen from too hard of a thrust? "Oh, sorry kid, that's life 
>-
> >can
> > > we get a 'Lay on' here?"
> > >
> > > My SINCERE hope is that one of our youth fighters NEVER has anything
> >like
> > > this happen to them.  This may ruffle a few feathers, but the youth
> >fighters
> > > are worth it.  They will be 18 soon enough, after all, its only 730
> >days...
> > >
> > > "...Faith is daring the soul to believe what the eyes cannot see..."
> > >
> > > Lord Michael of Langley
> > > Squire to Sir Corwin von Xanten and Sir Anton Qwith
> > > Southern Regional Youth Marshal
> > >
> > > >From: "Vicki Marsh" <xaraxene at comcast.net>
> > > >Reply-To: Youth Combat in Ansteorra <youth-combat at ansteorra.org>
> > > >To: "Barony of Elfsea" <elfsea at ansteorra.org>, 
><steppes at ansteorra.org>,
> > > >    <youth-combat at ansteorra.org>
> > > >CC: dukepmg at aol.com
> > > >Subject: [Youth-combat] RE: [Elfsea] RE: [Steppes] Fwd: [Ansteorra]
> > > >YouthfulCombatants
> > > >Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 18:00:55 -0600
> > > >
> > > >Xene here:
> > > >
> > > >I was also in martial arts at the age of 16. Of course, this was a 
>long
> > > >time
> > > >ago, in the 1970's, but we fought without pads.  My parents didn't 
>have
> >to
> > > >stay around to watch, even at the tournaments.  In practice, I 
>sparred
> > > >adults, but only the ones that the instructor knew had the ability to
> >spar
> > > >with me without hurting me badly. I would get bruises, but nothing
> >major.
> > > >The only injury I got was at a tournament from another student that 
>was
> >in
> > > >my division. I got smacked in the nose pretty good and it taught me 
>to
> >keep
> > > >my guard up. Did my father sue anyone?  No. It was my fault for
> >dropping my
> > > >guard:)
> > > >As I improved in fighting, the intensity and speed was kicked up a
> >notch,
> > > >because the instructor knew I could handle it.
> > > >
> > > >16 and 17 year olds vary in size and maturity. Some of them are adult
> > > >sized,
> > > >some are not. Some have good judgement and some don't.  They can
> >legally
> > > >drive on the streets, once they get get their training and license, 
>but
> > > >they
> > > >don't get to jump in all at once. It requires in-classroom training,
> > > >behind-the-wheel training, 6 months with an instructional permit (and
> > > >driving with someone 21 yrs or older in the car).  They then have
> >another 6
> > > >months with a provisional license. See
> > >
> > 
> >www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/driver_licensing_control/graduateddrive
> > > >r.htm
> > > >Oklahoma also has the GDL (graduated Driver's license) See:
> > > >http://www.dps.state.ok.us/dls/gdl.htm
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >I figure if the procedure of increasing responsibility and risk is 
>good
> > > >enough for the States of Texas and Oklahoma, it's good enough for
> > > >Ansteorra.
> > > >
> > > >Under the new proposed rules, as I understand it, *I* can decide
> >whether or
> > > >not my son is ready or not. Then, the Kingdom Earl Marshal will 
>provide
> >an
> > > >impartial decision as to whether or not my son is fit and mature 
>enough
> >to
> > > >fight with adults.
> > > >That is reasonable.
> > > >
> > > >My only concern is that if we have a EM who doesn't travel enough, or
> > > >parents who aren't able to travel to the EM, they won't be able to 
>have
> >the
> > > >requisite approval. Unfortunately, we have had kingdom officers who
> > > >virtually fell off the face of the earth during their tenure. If the
> >power
> > > >of final approval only rests in one person's hands, it can become a
> > > >bottleneck, or a political issue.
> > > >
> > > >Baroness Xene Theriane, OL, OP
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >-
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Youth-combat mailing list
> > > >Youth-combat at ansteorra.org
> > > >http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/youth-combat
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
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>
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