Heraldry

[Aodhan Ite an Fhithich]

Dia duit!

 [Replying to a message of Leslie Miller  to All]

 LM>>> Isn't it Duke Lloyd who has a diamondback rattlesnake as part of his
 LM>>> device?   And somebody has a scorpion...and the Barony of Eldern
 LM>>> Hills has a  buffalo as part of theirs... Duchess Rowan has a polar
 LM>>> bear... So Western  hmispheric critters* seem to be widely
 LM>>> acceptable and frequently  used.  (I'm assuming that you're talking
 LM>>> heraldry here, and not  actual people.)
 >>  Re: rattlesnakes and buffalo (specifically the American Bison). 
 >> Vasquez de Coronado explored New Mexico and Arizona in 1540 (New York
 >> Library Desk Reference, 2nd. ed., p. 880) and would have encoutnered
 >> *many* rattlesnakes and bufalo, so they were not *unknown* to
 >> Europeans in period

 LM> I am well aware of that, thank you.  I said nothing in my post aout 
 LM> "knowing" or not "knowing" about the existance of something.  (I  was
 LM> not aware that New Zealand was not discovered until so much  later.)

Did you bother to check?  I wasn't sure whether New Zealand was known in
period, but doubted that it was, so I LOOKED IT UP.  Is this a concept no
longer taught in schools?

 >> , however I doubt they would have considered them for use in their
 >> armory within period.  There were buffalo (water buffalo) known to
 >> Europeans. 

 LM> But water buffalo do not look like American buffalo, and the buffalo 
 LM> depicted on the Barony of Eldern Hills' banners look like American 
 LM> buffalo.  Is this artistic licence?

I think we're not communicating here.  I took your statements to be arguments
in favor of allowing "non-Continental" charges.  I was attempting to argue
that the specific charges you cited were known in period and *could* have been
used in period armory, but probably weren't and are probably not acceptable
charges for use in the SCA. The fact that they were registered once does not
imply they should be again, unless evidence of their use in period can be
presented.

 >> In the specific case of Duke Lloyd'sarms, these were registered in
 >> 1980; we are not obligated to repeat past mistakes.

 LM> Ah, so they'd no longer be allowed?  This is information I did not 
 LM> know, and I thank you for providing it.

I did not say they were no longer allowed.  I implied that having registered
these in the past does not necessarily imply that the CoA will do so in the
future.

 >> Re: scorpions.  Every hear of the Zodiacal Constellation Scorpius?

 LM> Yes, I have.

 >> So named by the Greeks because of its obvious resemblance to a
 >> scorpion?  If scorpions are not actually indigenous to Euroe, the
 >> Crusaders certainly became fatally familiar with them.

 LM> The key here is "not actually indigenou to Europe."

No, the key here is that they were known to Europeans centuries before they
knew about the Western Hemisphere.  By "If" I intended to indicate that *I*
was unsure on the particular point of whether scorpions were indigenous to
Europe.  I suspect they are, since the Greeks knew of them.  However, even if
they are not, they are certainly indigenous to the Eastern Hemisphere.

 >> Re: polar bears.  Ever hear of the Rus or the Vikings??

 LM> Yes, amazingly enough, I have.  In fact, I have done extensive
 LM> research  in Viking history, and actually attended graduate school
 LM> for a  stint at UC Berkeley in the Scandinavian languages and
 LM> literature  department studying Old Norse.

Kewl!  Did you learn enough Old Norse to help with checking Norse name
submissions?  The CoH really only has one good reference publication on Norse
names and someone with a knowledge of the language could really help us in the
cases that fall outside the scope of that publication.

 >> guess which bear they were most likely to run across.

 LM> Uh?  Brown bears?  :-)

Naaah. They're all white (who's gonna get close enough to brush off the snow
and see if there's brown under it <g>).

OK, point to you.  There are probably more brown bears in Northern Europe than
white, but white ones were not uncommon.

 LM> The post I was responding to mentioned "non-continental" charges.  I 
 LM> was giving examples of "non-continental" charges, admttedly off the
 LM> top of  my head.  I also thought about adding somebody's dancing
 LM> camel (one  of Mooneschadowe's former Queens of Grace and wisdom),
 LM> but decided I  already had enough examples and couldn't remember to
 LM> whom they  belonged.  Polar bears are not indigenous to what most
 LM> people  think of as "continental Europe".  Personally, those areas in
 LM> Norway,  Sweden and Finland above the artic circle do not immediately
 LM> spring  to _my_ mind when the phrase is used, though the
 LM> technicalities  could be argued.



 LM>> I think I've seen  actual period
 LM>>> arms that had supporters which were Native Americans  holding spears
 LM>>> (when I was in Denmark, perhaps), so they  might go for your Maori
 LM>>> king. 
 >>  What you probably saw was a "savage" or a "wild man".

 LM> I seem to remember that they had  head-bands with a feathers sticking 
 LM> out, because I remember thinking "wow, those are North American 
 LM> Indians!". Wild men figure prominently as supporters in Danish 
 LM> Heraldry, but these were different.  However, my emory has been 
 LM> known to be faulty before, so I may be wrong.  They may also have 
 LM> been non-period;  the museum I saw them in was not limited to  pieces
 LM> from the Middle Ages.

Well, if post-period armory was on display, especially in the light of the
description you give here, they may very well have been American Indians.  Not
having seen them myself, I can only speculate.  However, we all tend to
interpret the unknown based on what we do know, so it seemed reasonable to me
that you could have misinterpreted an unfamiliar charge.

 LM>>> I mainly just wanted to point out  that non-continental animals are
 LM>>> used fairly often in SCA heraldry.
 >>  Two citations do not constitute a trend.

 LM> Well, I humbly apologize for providing misleading information, then.  
 LM> It seemed like several examples sprang immediately to mind,  attached
 LM> to people and places of prominace, so that I incorrectly  assumed
 LM> that it was acceptable.  For the benefit of the original  poster I
 LM> thank you for so politely revealing my ignorance.

You've fallen into a trap we heralds see alot of people fall into - the
assumption that the "Rules" are immutable.  Well, what's acceptable changes
over time.  We (collectively) know alot more about medieval heraldry than we
did 10 or 15 years ago.  There are things we did then we would be less likely
to do now.  I'm not sure where people get this idea about the rules being
unchanging; I know of no other aspect of life where this is true.

Feicfidh me' ari's thu',

Aodhan
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Baron Aodhan Ite an Fhithich    aodhan at dobharchu.org
Master of the Laurel            Lough na Dobharchu' BBS  1-713-338-2570
Dobharchu' Herald               "Your Information Roman Road"
mka David H. Brummel            1:106/22  180:11/22  762:2200/2
SCA Member 02245                Barony of Loch Soilleir, Ansteorra
http://www.phoenix.net/~dbrummel
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