[Ansteorra] SCA slang

[karen moon]

--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]

Greetings from Mari!

Where, oh where to begin?  I'll just dive in here and paddle backwards....

I concur with and support Sir Richard's statement below.  "Troll" was not used for "gate guard" back in the 70s and very- early 80s -- at least not in the south.  I can't say for sure when I first heard it, or what passage it took to get to Ansteorra, but I seem to recall the term first appearing in the mid 80s and being pretty firmly entrenched in some groups by the late 80s to early 90s.  If anyone actually cares to document the usage, I suggest pulling out about 15 years worth of Black Stars and checking event announcements.  Once you find the earliest instance of a group actually using the term "Troll" instead of "Toll" or "Gate", you've got your proof as to when the term had become acceptable, and on whom to cast Blame and Aspersion or Praise and Thanks, according to your belief.  "Gate" is still called "Gate" in Bjornsborg, as it always has been, and I do not recall any Great Battle of Conscience ever being fought over our possible usage of the term "Troll".  It may have been that the term was viewed as suspiciously foreign -- and at some point I believe it certainly was a foreign  rather than "homegrown" term -- or it may have been that the local population curve was decidedly Viking and no one felt particularly placid about giving their money to Trolls.  Can't speak for any other group, but the term never caught on in Bjornsborg.

Now, someone -- I forget just who -- suggested that "Troll" was a term originated by our "Founders".  I don't know whether the poster meant the Founders of the SCA or the Founders of Ansteorra, but the statement makes me wonder if the Founders, way back in '66, were using the word "Troll" for "Gate" even at that time.  I'm pretty sure the founders of Ansteorra weren't, for reasons given above.  This isn't a challenge to whoever posted -- it's just a scholarly question.  When exactly "did" the usage arise, and can we track it?

As for the question of trolls and dwarves and such, allow me to quote the Bard of Avon, who wrote "there are more things 'tween Heaven & Earth, Horatio, than we have dreamt of in our mortal ken," or something like that.  So, some of us allege we have never seen trolls, and demand to face one before belief is given.  Yet most good Christians have never seen the Seraphim or Cherubim, yet believe in angels.  This is not to say that Perfect Faith is required before believing in trolls, merely that one never knows....

As for Actual Sightings of Trolls, allow me to address Sir Pendaran and a few other folk whose memories run longer than others:  I must remind you that you *have* seen a Troll, and endured a Troll, and lived to tell about it.  Let me further point out that to speak overmuch of a Thing is to Summon That Thing, just as the saying "Speak of the devil and his imp shall appear" goes.  So, good Sir Pendaran, I pray you, cease requiring proof positive of Trolls.  You may get it, and we may all the be worse for it.  (And how can you have forgotten Master Ragnar's Pilgrimage at the last Outlands War?  Really, what better proof do you need?)

And finally, back to something Sir Richard said, or tried to imply, about Duke Lloyd:  Richard, just because you only saw Lloyd when you folded your big, long, gangly legs and sat down at his eye-level, doesn't mean that Lloyd was ever unseen by the rest of us.  In fact, I recall that it was *much* safer to always known *exactly* where Lloyd was.  That way, we never fell over him. ;-)

Yours in long, long memory,

Mari



----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Morgan
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 11:08 PM
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] SCA slang

    A great hypothesis based on the facts available, however when I joined
twenty three years ago it was kind of a mater of kingdom pride that we
didn't use these terms. One of the many justifications that I heard at that
time was what good Ansteorran would want to use terminology  invented by
fantasy elements from the Midrealm. In reality it did not matter where they
originated, because of the fact that sense these terms had not been in use
when we were new to the SCA  those of us from that time felt that they were
superfluous and silly and never developed an appreciation for them.. Just as
many of our newer folk that live in places where they are used find them
quaint and endearing. As for me, personally they make me cringe. Now if you
wanted to hear a dwarfish rant for about an hour or so, if you lived that
long, you could of had this discussion with Duke Lloyd, just refer to your
conveyance as a dragon.
     Now Pendaran, come on, His Grace was seldom seen when he played, he was
heard, and felt often, but seldom seen.

Looming in the shadows,
Sir Richard ap Morgan


  ----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck and Rhonda Leggett" <RLEGGETT at austin.rr.com>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] SCA slang


> If I may offer a personal observation, I believe that much of this
> good-natured controversy is the result of the changing demographics of the
> SCA.  The Society is no longer a group of (barely) twenty-something
college
> students, though (thankfully!) we still have many of that group.  However,
> the median age has risen over the years, to the point that now the Society
> has a large content of somewhat older, more mature, more serious players
> that have more interest in the historically accurate aspects, rather than
> the fanciful, "playful" attitude of yesteryear. There are those who wish
to
> maintain the youthful attitudes of the "old days" when they joined (We all
> have a little Peter Pan in us, or we couldn't play).  One extreme sees the
> other as anal-retentive authenticity Nazis, while being themselves seen by
> the opposite extreme as childish and giddy.  Fortunately, either extreme
is
> very rare; this is perhaps the most tolerant group of people I've ever
known
> (or known of).
> For myself, I prefer to use the "proper" terms, but I find the "early
> Scadian" dialect amusing at worst; certainly not offensive.
> For example, when someone says "Troll Gate," my old and weak ears hear the
> word "Toll Gate."  It never occurs to me that some infidel is having a
> fantasy attack  After all, there's limited space in Bedlam; not every
> "special" citizen can be "kept safe!"
>
> Enough.
>
> Ever in service,
> Marion du Massue.
> House of Brick.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ansteorra mailing list
> Ansteorra at ansteorra.org
> http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/ansteorra

_______________________________________________
Ansteorra mailing list
Ansteorra at ansteorra.org
http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/ansteorra