[Ansteorra] Royalty - Same Sex Consorts
HerrDetlef
herrdetlef at gmail.com
Sat Oct 29 21:10:25 PDT 2011
How many queens in period were joint rulers with their husbands? Queens in
period had a much different role than do queens in the Current Middle Ages.
Without looking at any references, can you name the wife of every king in
period (or even out of period) that you know by name? Who was Alfred the
Great's wife? Charlemagne's? Otto I's? Frederick Barbarossa's? Hugh Capet's?
How about the spouse of Henry I of England? Wenceslas of Bohemia? Treating
women in the SCA in the same way that women were treated in period is
unconscionable. A queen's duty in period was nothing more than to produce an
heir. Can a king in the Current Middle Ages annul his queen before the end
of his reign? Wouldn't they both have to step down? How many kings in period
abdicated their thrones so that they could annul their wives?
Detlef
On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Adam R Thompson <adam.r.thompson1 at gmail.com
> wrote:
> You are pointing out cases of brothers and sons where each still had a
> Queen by their sides and a separate royal family. This is not the same as a
> proposal to have the role of the Queen (or Opposite sex consort) replaced by
> someone of the same sex. One is not the basis for the other.
>
> Richard
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 29, 2011, at 20:30, HerrDetlef <herrdetlef at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes. Read Gregory of Tours' "History of the Franks" and Einhard's "Life
> of
> > Charlemagne." On more than one occasion during the early period of the
> > Frankish kingdom, the kingship was divided between or among men. They
> were
> > often brothers. Charlemagne, indeed, shared the kingship with his brother
> > Carloman until the latter's death, and Charlemagne's three grandsons
> shared
> > the kingship (although the kingdom was split into three territories at
> that
> > time) after the death of their father, Louis the Pious.
> >
> > Henry II had his son Henry crowned king while the former was still
> alive--a
> > practice that did not come without historical precedent. So, at at least
> one
> > time in English medieval history, that nation had two kings. The Young
> King
> > did not live to inherit the sole kingship, as he died about three years
> > before his father.
> >
> > The Roman imperial dignity was shared between two men for much of the
> last
> > centuries of the Western Roman empire--one emperor sitting in Rome, the
> > other sitting in Constantinople. This shared dignity, and the necessity
> for
> > imperial proclamations to be issued by both emperors, led to the
> subsequent
> > practice of the "royal plural," by which a single monarch would address
> > himself or herself in the third person. Indeed, the conventions of
> English
> > usage dictated that, while most people would be addressed with the
> > second-person-singular pronounx "thou" and "thee," monarchs would be
> > addressed with the second-person-plural pronoun "ye" and "you." Liberal
> > ideals of the enlightment later suggested that "what is good enough for
> the
> > king is good enough for the common man," and eventually all people were
> > addressed with the second-person-plural "you."
> >
> > I anticipate that someone might point out that these relationships were
> > never sexual, to which I say, neither are the relationships that gay men
> who
> > win the Crown in the SCA have with their female consorts. The current
> King
> > and Queen of Ansteorra, neither of whom is gay, are not each other's
> > significant other. Since the SCA does not follow the mundane requirement
> > that two or more people who share a royal dignity be legally related, the
> > legal relationship between monarch and consort cannot be considered at
> all.
> >
> > Just my meagre opinion.
> >
> > Yours in these Current Middle Ages,
> > Detlef von Marburg
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Holly Decker <hdec333 at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Is this supported Historically?
> >> Anna
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: David Brown <lddevin03 at yahoo.com>
> >> To: Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc. <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
> >> Sent: Sat, Oct 29, 2011 9:48 am
> >> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Royalty - Same Sex Consorts
> >>
> >>
> >> I think that it is time we do so. If I was a heavy fighter I certainly
> >> would
> >> have a male consort.
> >>
> >> Lord Devin
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Craig Shupee' <philipwhite at hotmail.com>
> >> To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org
> >> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 10:58 AM
> >> Subject: [Ansteorra] Royalty - Same Sex Consorts
> >>
> >>
> >> Howdy all - I thought I'd ask the group what everyone thinks about the
> >> proposal
> >> to allow for same-sex consorts in Crown Tourney.If you are unfamiliar,
> so
> >> can
> >> learn more here:http://www.scatoday.net/node/21565 Or on facebook,
> there
> >> is a
> >> lot of information:
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/InspriationalEquality/It is
> >> certainly something that will be discussed widely, so, start gathering
> your
> >> thoughts now and talking to each other. ~philip
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
> > þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
> > hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
> > Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
> > monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
> > egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
> > feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
> > weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
> > oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra
> > ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
> > gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning!
> > _______________________________________________
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> > In order to make changes and manage your account please go to:
> > http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-ansteorra.org
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>
--
Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra
ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning!
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