[Ansteorra-chirurgeon] Fwd: [SCA-Chirurgeon] Digest Number 1382

richard hall arkellvomcophus at yahoo.com
Wed Oct 6 19:10:48 PDT 2004



SCA-Chirurgeon at yahoogroups.com wrote:Date: 6 Oct 2004 22:39:16 -0000
From: SCA-Chirurgeon at yahoogroups.com
To: SCA-Chirurgeon at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SCA-Chirurgeon] Digest Number 1382


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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. BBC E-mail: Medieval surgeons were advanced
From: Colin of Eilean Donan 
2. Fwd: question
From: richard hall 
3. Re: Fwd: question
From: "brocc at juno.com" 

4. Re: Fwd: question
From: John Groseclose 
5. Re: Fwd: question
From: "marilyn traber 011221" 

6. Re: Fwd: question
From: "stsp503" 
7. Chirurgeonate-Ansteorra] Fwd: question
From: "Richard" 
8. Re: Fwd: question
From: "brocc at juno.com" 

9. Re: Re: Fwd: question
From: "brocc at juno.com" 

10. Re: Fwd: question
From: "Tom McKinnell" 
11. Re: Fwd: question
From: "Tom McKinnell" 
12. Re: Fwd: question
From: "marilyn traber 011221" 

13. Re: Fwd: question
From: "marilyn traber 011221" 

14. Re: Fwd: question
From: "Crandall" 
15. Re: Re: Fwd: question
From: Matthew Pius 
16. Fwd: Re: [Ansteorra-chirurgeon] Fwd: question
From: richard hall 
17. Fwd: RE: [Ansteorra-chirurgeon] Fwd: question
From: richard hall 
18. Re: Re: Fwd: question
From: "jim" 
19. Re: Re: Fwd: question
From: "Jason Brookbank" 
20. Re: Fwd: question
From: Doug Browne 
21. Re: Fwd: question
From: "Jason Brookbank" 
22. Fwd: FW: CDC Issues FLU Health Advisory
From: Geordon VanTassle 
23. Brain surgery in period
From: Freydis Thorfinnsdottir 
24. Re: Fwd: question
From: "Tom McKinnell" 
25. Re: Fwd: question
From: John Groseclose 


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Message: 1 
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 07:11:29 +0000
From: Colin of Eilean Donan 
Subject: BBC E-mail: Medieval surgeons were advanced

Colin of Eilean Donan saw this story on BBC News Online and thought you
should see it.

** Message **
Very interesting read.

** Medieval surgeons were advanced **
Complex skull operations were being performed as early as 960AD, remains of a body found at an archaeological dig show.
< http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/health/3714992.stm >


** BBC Daily E-mail **
Choose the news and sport headlines you want - when you want them, all
in one daily e-mail
< http://www.bbc.co.uk/dailyemail/ >


** Disclaimer **
The BBC is not responsible for the content of this
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Message: 2 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 08:52:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: richard hall 
Subject: Fwd: question

Enjoy this ? asked of me as todays fun challange.

Arkell



Hope this is o.k. to put it this way ...If you think it needs changing ...please do so... You have a young man ,age ,around 15 yrs.old ,and he ask you for a comdom. Do you give to him or not ? Do you talk to him about "why" he wants it..How are we as Chirurgeon to handal this ? This is after all a minor.



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Message: 3 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 16:11:35 GMT
From: "brocc at juno.com" 

Subject: Re: Fwd: question


Regarding the giving of a condom to a minor:

I'm going to switch hats for a moment. As some of you know I am an attorney. As most of you do not know, I handle many criminal defense cases. The following information is based on California law. It may not be accurate in any other state.

If a chirurgeon, and therefore someone over 18, gives the 15 year old a condom, the chirurgeon is guilty of contributing to the delinquency of a minor. If said minor then uses the condom with a girl between the ages of 14 and 18, the chirurgeon could find themselves charged with statutory rape on an aiding and abetting theory (remember the minor was 15 in the question). If the minor even touches a girl under the age of 14 in a sexual manner, and it can be shown that having the condom in any way encouraged this activity, the chirurgeon is guilty of child molestation.

Keep in mind that California has very broad sexual registration requirements, so in addition to the criminal record, the chirurgeon will probably be registering as a sex offender for the rest of their life.

Not only will this almost assuredly get you tossed from the chirurgeonate, but probably from the SCA too.

Additionally, should the condom not be properly used, or should it fail, the SCA will lose a VERY big lawsuit especially if the girl becomes pregnant or contracts an STD.

All in all, it's a really bad idea to give a condom to a minor.

Brocc
Former corporate chirurgeon

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Message: 4 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 09:20:43 -0700
From: John Groseclose 
Subject: Re: Fwd: question

Quoting richard hall :

> Hope this is o.k. to put it this way ...If you think it needs changing
> ...please do so... You have a young man ,age ,around 15
> yrs.old ,and he ask you for a comdom. Do you give to him or not ? Do you talk
> to him about "why" he wants it..How are we as Chirurgeon to handal this ?
> This is after all a minor.

My own kit generally stays closed unless they're a non-minor or their guardian
is present.

And, yes, I did once make a 12-year-old go get Mommy to ask me for the
bacitracin and a band-aid...

--
spam delenda est


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Message: 5 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 13:24:46 -0400
From: "marilyn traber 011221" 

Subject: Re: Fwd: question

> Enjoy this ? asked of me as todays fun challange.
> 
> Arkell
> 
> Hope this is o.k. to put it this way ...If you think it needs 
> changing ...please do so... You have a young man 
> ,age ,around 15 yrs.old ,and he ask you for a comdom. Do you give to 
> him or not ? Do you talk to him about "why" he wants it..How are we 
> as Chirurgeon to handal this ? This is after all a minor.

Seems to me that, if you've arranged your condoms sensibly, he shouldn't have 
to ask. As I've mentioned, when I have them, I put them out in a "free" 
basket, close enough that I can prevent little kids from getting into them, 
but far away enough that the person wanting one or two doesn't have to look 
me in the eye. As far as who takes them, I don't "notice".

If, however, I were directly asked by a youngster who is underage, but 
obviously past puberty, I'd give him one or two. As far as I'm aware, there's 
no age restriction on them, like alcohol or cigarettes, he's acting in a 
responsible manner, and for all I know he needs it for a water balloon or a 
treasure hunt. It's certainly not my business WHAT he does with it, and it's 
certainly nothing that could cause him or anyone else damage. And, there is 
no law, that I'm aware of that prohibits youngsters from having consensual 
sex with each other- the laws only kick in when there is a question of rape, 
or a serious age differential (those laws vary from state to state, and I'm 
not into addressing all the variants).

Saint Phlip,
CoD


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Message: 6 
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 17:54:59 -0000
From: "stsp503" 
Subject: Re: Fwd: question


The following leads to the possibility of any condom given out by 
the chirurgeonate being a potential lawsuit. As far as I am 
concerned if one is old enough to have sex one is old enough to 
accept responsibility for any possible result-STD, pregnancy, etc. 

Michael MacSeoin

> Additionally, should the condom not be properly used, or should it 
fail, the SCA will lose a VERY big lawsuit especially if the girl 
becomes pregnant or contracts an STD.
> 
> All in all, it's a really bad idea to give a condom to a minor.
> 
> Brocc
> Former corporate chirurgeon







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Message: 7 
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 18:04:18 -0000
From: "Richard" 
Subject: Chirurgeonate-Ansteorra] Fwd: question


From: 
Date: Wed Oct 6, 2004 12:26 pm 
Subject: Re: [Chirurgeonate-Ansteorra] Fwd: question


*I don't know many 15 year old males that would ask a chirurgeon for 
a condom. He wouldn't know that some Chirurgeons carry them. 

*If he had the nerve to ask me for a condom, I would have the nerve 
to ask why he needed/wanted one. 

* Giving it to him depends on why he wants/needs it. At 
15................. Even for a water balloon I would have to think 
hard about it. 
Mostly I am leaning towards telling him no, for myself. 

*BTW, all the time I have been in the SCA with all the wars/ events , 
I have never been asked for a condom. 

* As Chirurgeons it is a matter for each person to decide upon. If 
you know him/and or the girl/and or the other male (a gay thing)-
since the SCA is tolerant of so many different things it may be a 
different answer than if you didn't know him.

Ebby/Coni jo
--- Original Message ----- 







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Message: 8 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 18:59:45 GMT
From: "brocc at juno.com" 

Subject: Re: Fwd: question


Regarding no laws about under age sex, in California, it is statutory rape for there to be intercourse with a girl under the age of 18. Yes, 17 year old boys have gone to juvenile court for having sex with their 17 year old girlfriends.

Brocc
California Attorney

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Message: 9 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 19:05:42 GMT
From: "brocc at juno.com" 

Subject: Re: Re: Fwd: question


Regarding a lawsuit, once the person is over the age of majority, they would be much harder pressed to sue for improper condom use, or failure of the condom. They sould probably have to show that the chirurgeon improperly instructed the user on the use, or handed out old condoms. Condoms are generally accepted to have a shelf life of one year from what I have been told, although this may be incorrect information.

However, since a minor, by definition, is presumed not to be responsible enough to be having intercourse, it is probably going to be found that they are not responsible enough to be using condoms, therefore, the adult who supplied the condom is liable to be in big trouble. I love run on sentences.

Brocc
A California attorney

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Message: 10 
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 19:08:36 -0000
From: "Tom McKinnell" 
Subject: Re: Fwd: question



It should be added that it applies _only_ to California law- and 
whilst the UK is another (or rather _two_ other) Common law country 
(English and Scots common law are subtley different). This has been 
applied to pharmacists giving out condoms as well, so I think would 
cover the Chirurgeonate over here. That said, the concept of 
underage sex at an SCA event is a minefield, and one I hope our 
minors are sensible enough to keep until they get (a) older or at 
least (b) home.


In summary: 


In the UK the Fraser Guidelines, and the Gillick ruling in the House 
of Lords, established that...

"A health professional can give contraceptive advice and treatment 
to someone under the age of sixteen, provided that they are 
satisfied that they are competent. Guidance on this was issued in 
1985 as part of Lord Fraser¡¦s judgement, following the House of 
Lords¡¦ Ruling in the case of Victoria Gillick v. West Norfolk and 
Wisbech Health Authority and the Department of Health and Social 
Security. These are now referred to as the Fraser Guidelines, and 
although they relate specifically to contraception do apply to other 
treatments, including abortion in England and Wales. 


The young person is competent to consent to contraceptive advice if 

„h The young person understands the doctor¡¦s advice 

„h The doctor cannot persuade the young person to inform his or her 
parents or allow the doctor to inform the parents that s/he is 
seeking contraceptive advice 

„h The young person is very likely to begin or continue having 
intercourse with or without contraception 

„h The young person¡¦s physical health or mental is likely to suffer 
if s/he does not receive contraceptive advice 

„h It is in the best interests of the young person to receive 
contraceptive advice without parental consent 


In Scotland the Age of Legal Capacity (Scotland) Act 1991 says ¡§a 
person under the age of 16 years shall have legal capacity to 
consent on his own behalf to any surgical, medical or dental 
procedure or treatment where in the opinion of a qualified medical 
practitioner attending him, he is capable of understanding the 
nature and possible consequences of the procedure or treatment¡¨ 



Bissette-Johnson A, Ferguson P. 1996 Consent to medical treatment by 
older children in English and Scottish law. J Contemp Health Law and 
Policy, 12, 449 ¡V 473 "

(http://www.contraceptioneducation.co.uk/sdays.asp?news_id=20)


In summary: You can consent to treatment, including contraception, 
when you're mature enough to understand what you're getting into, 
and when the person _declines_ to involve their parents 
(confidentiality, remember), and when their health will be at risk 
since they plan on having sex anyway.

Hope this clarifies the position in at least two of the non-American 
countries.





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Message: 11 
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 19:14:02 -0000
From: "Tom McKinnell" 
Subject: Re: Fwd: question


And at the end of all that, I forgot to sign it!


Antonio di Rienzo,
Master Chirurgeon, 
Drachenwald,

mka

Mr Tom McKinnell BSc, MB ChB, MRCS (Ed)
Senior SHO in Plastic Surgery
(And therefore involved in consent for surgery, when necessary, from 
minors)





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Message: 12 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:27:57 -0400
From: "marilyn traber 011221" 

Subject: Re: Fwd: question

> Regarding no laws about under age sex, in California, it is 
> statutory rape for there to be intercourse with a girl under the age 
> of 18. Yes, 17 year old boys have gone to juvenile court for having 
> sex with their 17 year old girlfriends.
> 
> Brocc
> California Attorney

Whereas in Ohio, as I recall (checked out the rules when I moved there at 
17), an 18 year old can have sex with a 16 or 17 yo, but not a 15 yo, and a 
16 or 17 yo can have sex with anyone. As I understand it (haven't checked the 
appropriate statutes here, but according to my roommate) in CT, under 18s can 
do whatever, and over 18s can do whatever, but an 18+ yo is not allowed to 
have sex with a 17 yo or younger.

Never checked here myself, because I consider under 30s impossible, under 40s 
unusual, and prefer gentlemen of my own age group ;-)

Saint Phlip,
CoD



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Message: 13 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:29:13 -0400
From: "marilyn traber 011221" 

Subject: Re: Fwd: question

> Regarding no laws about under age sex, in California, it is 
> statutory rape for there to be intercourse with a girl under the age 
> of 18. Yes, 17 year old boys have gone to juvenile court for having 
> sex with their 17 year old girlfriends.
> 
> Brocc
> California Attorney

Whereas in Ohio, as I recall (checked out the rules when I moved there at 
17), an 18 year old can have sex with a 16 or 17 yo, but not a 15 yo, and a 
16 or 17 yo can have sex with anyone. As I understand it (haven't checked the 
appropriate statutes here, but according to my roommate) in CT, under 18s can 
do whatever, and over 18s can do whatever, but an 18+ yo is not allowed to 
have sex with a 17 yo or younger.

Never checked here myself, because I consider under 30s impossible, under 40s 
unusual, and prefer gentlemen of my own age group ;-) Have this funny thing 
about liking a good conversation before and after ;-) After all, conversation 
lasts longer than sex, and can be had anywhere ;-)

Saint Phlip,
CoD



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Message: 14 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 14:38:39 -0500
From: "Crandall" 
Subject: Re: Fwd: question

Over the years I have been asked for and provided condoms. Probably a box a year, on average. I think the only major event that I did not get asked was the year that a merchant put out over 100 in a basket and placed them with a sign, "Free". 

I have been asked by young women, as well as young men. 

When asked by someone who is considered underage for sexual behavior, I feel that I should pry into their motives. and then yield to my better judgement. Being asked, in this case, by someone who was "hopeful" rather than someone who is preparing for a "sure thing" would have impact on this choice. As well as the possibility of both future partners coming to me and telling me of their choice. 

Crandall 


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Message: 15 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 17:09:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Matthew Pius 
Subject: Re: Re: Fwd: question


On Wed, 6 Oct 2004, brocc at juno.com wrote:

> Condoms are generally accepted to have a shelf life of one year from 
> what I have been told, although this may be incorrect information.

Actually, condoms have an "expiration date" stamped either on the 
foil packet or on the box itself. The condom may work just fine after 
that date, but the manufacturer asserts that it should definitely be good 
before then.

> However, since a minor, by definition, is presumed not to be responsible
> enough to be having intercourse, it is probably going to be found that 
> they are not responsible enough to be using condoms, therefore, the

Just bear in mind that the age of consent varies from one 
jurisdiction to another. In some states it is as low as 14. Some define 
it differently if the adult is above a certain age (such as 21) or 
stipulate a minimum age difference (to avoid situations like Brocc 
described with the two 17-year-olds). I've been told that in some states
the age of consent is different for boys and girls.

Check out: http://www.ageofconsent.com/


-Ibrahim al-Rashid
(mka Matt Pius)



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Message: 16 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:05:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: richard hall 
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Ansteorra-chirurgeon] Fwd: question



Lancaster Community wrote:Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 11:33:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lancaster Community 
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-chirurgeon] Fwd: question
To: Kingdom of Ansteorra Chirurgeon discussions


I would think that if a young person of fifteen had worked up the nerve to ask you for a condom, then they were pretty determined to have sex. I being the parent of teenage boys and girl, would far rather, if they were that determined to have sex, that it be safe sex than to do it without any protection at all. I know too many people who have children that have HIV or full blown AIDS. I think that I would much rather give them the condom, and not worry as much about whether I or anyone else agrees with the idea of their having sex, as they are going to do it, regardless.

Annalies

richard hall wrote:
Enjoy this ? asked of me as todays fun challange.

Arkell



Hope this is o.k. to put it this way ...If you think it needs changing ...please do so... You have a young man ,age ,around 15 yrs.old ,and he ask you for a comdom. Do you give to him or not ? Do you talk to him about "why" he wants it..How are we as Chirurgeon to handal this ? This is after all a minor.



It's nice to be important..but....It's more important to be nice...









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Message: 17 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:06:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: richard hall 
Subject: Fwd: RE: [Ansteorra-chirurgeon] Fwd: question



Gerita/Carolle Cox wrote:
If he asks, you GIVE him one!! Better he's having sex without parental permission than the father of an unwanted brat, or the recipient of a 'gift' like HIV. I'm a parent of both male and female offspring, and this is the way I'd want my kids handled.




People are like stained glass windows. They sparkle and shine when the sun is out, but when darkness sets in, their beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within. -- Elizabeth Kübler-Ross

-----Original Message-----
From: ansteorra-chirurgeon-bounces+hpockets=verizon.net at ansteorra.org [mailto:ansteorra-chirurgeon-bounces+hpockets=verizon.net at ansteorra.org] On Behalf Of richard hall
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:53 AM
To: sca-chirurgeon at yahoogroups.com; chirurgeon at att.net; chirurgeon at sca.org; chirurgeonate-ansteorra at yahoogroups.com; ansteorra-chirurgeon at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Ansteorra-chirurgeon] Fwd: question


Enjoy this ? asked of me as todays fun challange.

Arkell



Hope this is o.k. to put it this way ...If you think it needs changing ...please do so... You have a young man ,age ,around 15 yrs.old ,and he ask you for a comdom. Do you give to him or not ? Do you talk to him about "why" he wants it..How are we as Chirurgeon to handal this ? This is after all a minor.



It's nice to be important..but....It's more important to be nice...









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vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today!_______________________________________________
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Message: 18 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 17:51:40 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
From: "jim" 
Subject: Re: Re: Fwd: question


California law sucks .. PA is much more reasonable .. Not sure of Florida
where i now live .. 

-------Original Message-------

From: SCA-Chirurgeon at yahoogroups.com
Date: 10/06/04 15:08:02
To: SCA-Chirurgeon at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCA-Chirurgeon] Re: Fwd: question


Regarding a lawsuit, once the person is over the age of majority, they would
be much harder pressed to sue for improper condom use, or failure of the
condom. They sould probably have to show that the chirurgeon improperly
instructed the user on the use, or handed out old condoms. Condoms are
generally accepted to have a shelf life of one year from what I have been
told, although this may be incorrect information.

However, since a minor, by definition, is presumed not to be responsible
enough to be having intercourse, it is probably going to be found that they
are not responsible enough to be using condoms, therefore, the adult who
supplied the condom is liable to be in big trouble. I love run on sentences


Brocc
A California attorney

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Message: 19 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 14:20:18 -0400
From: "Jason Brookbank" 
Subject: Re: Re: Fwd: question


In response to what people are thinking about the sexual activity of minors,
I offer the following link.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/georgia/

This is the website that corresponds to PBS's show "Frontline"'s special
called "The Lost Children of Rockdale County". This is about a large
syphilis outbreak in young teenagers back in 1996. Much more occurs at this
age group today than you really want to know.

The last statistic that I heard about the average age of first sexual
contact (loss of virginity) in the USA was 14 and dropping. Since that is
the average, there are many both earlier and later than 14.

Od Turgeison Skullagrimmssonar

> The following leads to the possibility of any condom given out by
> the chirurgeonate being a potential lawsuit. As far as I am
> concerned if one is old enough to have sex one is old enough to
> accept responsibility for any possible result-STD, pregnancy, etc.
>
> Michael MacSeoin






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Message: 20 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 11:17:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Doug Browne 
Subject: Re: Fwd: question


Brocc, you realize that you've given lots of us
reasons to never visit you in your home state, don't
you? :-)

--Vlad de Jaffa


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Message: 21 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 12:02:43 -0400
From: "Jason Brookbank" 
Subject: Re: Fwd: question


> Hope this is o.k. to put it this way ...If you think it needs changing
...please do so... You have a young man ,age ,around 15
yrs.old ,and he ask you for a comdom. Do you give to him or not ? Do you
talk to him about "why" he wants it..How are we as Chirurgeon to handal this
? This is after all a minor.


Tricky indeed. My personal solution would be to state that I do not keep
those in my kit. (which is true)

Od Turgeison Skullagrimmssonar







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Message: 22 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 09:44:14 -0500
From: Geordon VanTassle 
Subject: Fwd: FW: CDC Issues FLU Health Advisory


This is a forwarded message

Thought that you all might like to know about this.

===8<==============Original message text===============


-----Original Message-----
From: Emergencyemail.ORG [mailto:bounced at emergencyemailnetwork.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 9:33 AM
To: VANTASSLE, GEORDON M (SBCSI)
Subject: CDC Issues FLU Health Advisory


CDC Early interim FLU vaccination
and shortage information 
at...

http://www.emergencyemail.org/cdc2004.html



===8<===========End of original message text===========



-- 
Best regards,
Geordon mailto:gvantass at denevell.com






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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 23 
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 08:40:35 +0000
From: Freydis Thorfinnsdottir 
Subject: Brain surgery in period


I thought that folks here might be interested in this archaeological news
from Yorkshire, England.

Remains show that a man survived what would have been a fatal blow to the
head thanks to surgery.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3714992.stm

Freydis

-- 
freydis at beeb.net Klakavirka, ID, Drachenwald
*************************************************************
Having the moral high ground is good.
Having the moral high ground and a trebuchet is better.
************************************************************* 






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Message: 24 
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 22:21:27 -0000
From: "Tom McKinnell" 
Subject: Re: Fwd: question



Ah, get them to adopt Gillick. If they 'Understand the implications' 
they're old enough to consent.... and then it's their fault if they 
don't use the condom correctly. Tho' frankly, it'd be a bizarre 
concept...

"He gave me a condom, but it didn't work, and she got pregnant!"
"What would have happened if he hadn't?"
"Uh, she'd have got pregnant sooner!"
"And you're suing him because....?"


Antonio
Amused by Litiginousness only when it's safely an ocean away.



--- In SCA-Chirurgeon at yahoogroups.com, "jim" 
wrote:
> 
> California law sucks .. PA is much more reasonable .. Not sure of 
Florida
> where i now live .. 
> 
> -------Original Message-------
> 
> From: SCA-Chirurgeon at yahoogroups.com
> Date: 10/06/04 15:08:02
> To: SCA-Chirurgeon at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [SCA-Chirurgeon] Re: Fwd: question
> 
> 
> Regarding a lawsuit, once the person is over the age of majority, 
they would
> be much harder pressed to sue for improper condom use, or failure 
of the
> condom. They sould probably have to show that the chirurgeon 
improperly
> instructed the user on the use, or handed out old condoms. 
Condoms are
> generally accepted to have a shelf life of one year from what I 
have been
> told, although this may be incorrect information.
> 
> However, since a minor, by definition, is presumed not to be 
responsible
> enough to be having intercourse, it is probably going to be found 
that they
> are not responsible enough to be using condoms, therefore, the 
adult who
> supplied the condom is liable to be in big trouble. I love run on 
sentences
> 
> 
> Brocc
> A California attorney
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
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> 
> [To leave this list, send email to SCA-Chirurgeon-
unsubscribe at yahoogroups
> com
> or go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Chirurgeon ] 
> 
> 
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> ADVERTISEMENT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 25 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:39:11 -0700
From: John Groseclose 
Subject: Re: Fwd: question

Quoting Doug Browne :

>
>
> Brocc, you realize that you've given lots of us
> reasons to never visit you in your home state, don't
> you? :-)
>
> --Vlad de Jaffa

As I recall, there was a case in California where a burglar broke into someone's
house, opened an artery on the broken glass from the window, and bled to death
on the guy's front lawn.

His family sued the homeowner - and won.

--
spam delenda est


________________________________________________________________________
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[To leave this list, send email to SCA-Chirurgeon-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
or go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Chirurgeon ]
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