[Ansteorra-chirurgeon] And now the best answer possible to abadquestion

Wed Oct 6 22:04:01 PDT 2004

Any of us arguing based on the chances of being sued is a waste of time.
Anyone can sue us any time. The Good Samaritan law pretty much applies to
first aid/cpr/and emergency treatment and this is none of those. 

I would not expect any criminal actions to accrue. If you counciled the boy
and he got the idea you were encouraging him, then maybe a criminal action
might be lodged. But it would still be unlikely. If you put them out for use
and did not control who got what, then you probably have no criminal or
civil liability (but I am not a lawyer).

Handing anyone something they have specifically asked for is not dispensing
(as we have discussed ad nauseum in this and other forums). It is definitely
not prescribing. If they came to one of us and said, "I need something to
prevent me from getting an STD in the sexual activities I am about to
start." and we gave him some condoms, *then* we would be dispensing and
probably prescribing. 

HIPPA does not apply to a situation where you are not in any way asking for
money. Basically, if you can get under the Good Samaritan laws, then you are
out of HIPPA control. The SCA, Inc lawyers used that to say the
Chirurgeonate is not under HIPPA. Having a state license or certification
does not put you under HIPPA. You still have ethical reasons to protect your
patient's privacy and your license/certificate can be removed for unethical
behavior, but HIPPA is not the issue here.

After listening to all the different sides on this - and they were all very
well thought out and presented - I would (and do) make condoms available to
adults at events. Like with analgesics, they take their pick from what I
have and are cautioned to read any directions on the package as I don't
provide any directions. For a minor, in the absence of a legal prohibition
to sell condoms to them, I would be willing to provide condoms to them for
free under the same conditions as an adult. I would take the (I believe)
small chance of liability. 

Looking at the onset of sexual activity at about 14, I put a box of condoms
out for my sons when the eldest was about 13. I refreshed it from time to
time and did not ask questions about the missing ones. We had talked many
times in the years prior to that and I believe they had a good ethic about
sex.

In service,
Caelin on Andrede

  _____  

From: ansteorra-chirurgeon-bounces+rjt=acm.org at ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-chirurgeon-bounces+rjt=acm.org at ansteorra.org] On Behalf Of
Thaine Briscoe
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 11:42 PM
To: 'Kingdom of Ansteorra Chirurgeon discussions'
Subject: RE: [Ansteorra-chirurgeon] And now the best answer possible to
abadquestion

I have rather enjoyed this discussion. As a father of 4 (1 son and three
daughters) I find myself mixed. While I greatly appreciate the willingness
of people to make sure my children are "protected" from their actions (or
potential actions). The idea that my children can possible go to someone
else and asked and obtain what they need to justify their actions bothers
me.  As a chirurgeon, I would not hand them out to a minor no matter what
the law states. Even though I might be "safe" from criminal action, I will
still be subject to civil action (remember OJ, acquitted of criminal murder
charges but found responsible civilly for wrongful death). Also as a Medical
professional, (I am a Texas EMT Intermediate) because of my higher training,
I am far more likely to be sued since someone could interpret my actions as
"prescribing"  which I am not licensed to do and therefore practicing
medicine without a license. My certification will only protect me if I am
operating in an official capacity of my employment and do not exceed the
direction provided by my Medical Director (the doctor whose license I
operate under). Having said that, I am not protected by my Texas EMT alone
and could face criminal and certainly civil charges. Besides, I am already
paying too much in child support to even consider paying for someone else's
because I choose to give a 15 year old a condom to have sex at an event 

My understanding of HIPPA laws are that I am not allowed to disclose any
medical information to anyone who does not have the need (someone directly
involved in the patient's care).  This does not apply to the parent's of
minors as I am directly responsible for my children and therefore have the
legal right to access any and all things pertaining to their health care. So
by law I am required to disclose this information to the parents or legal
guardians if so asked, (unless the minor can produce the proper court papers
proving that the have been emancipated). Stepping on the parental rights can
be very tricky and even if you are safe from criminal prosecution will not
save you from civil prosecution.

Only my humble opinion,

Rurik

-----Original Message-----
From: ansteorra-chirurgeon-bounces+rurikthered=austin.rr.com at ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-chirurgeon-bounces+rurikthered=austin.rr.com at ansteorra.org
] On Behalf Of richard hall
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 7:45 PM
To: ansteorra-chirurgeon at ansteorra.org;
chirurgeonate-ansteorra at yahoogroups.com; sca-chirurgeon at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Ansteorra-chirurgeon] And now the best answer possible to a
badquestion

But this only true of the 2 states mentioned as I do not know about any
others except LA where I did live and work as an EMT but do not admitt very
often.

In TX & OK anybody 14 & over can obtain any medical care or contraseptive
from any medical professional or in the case of condoms or spremacide even a
guidence consular or buy it themselves with the consent of parents, so u can
give them the condom with fear of trouble and u can not inform the parent
due to the law and HIPAA if u have a TX cert or lisencsure. Yea i know HIPAA
does not apply but the laws of TX and OK do. And also in TX 17 yo and up +
17 yo and up = legal and 14-16+ 14-16=legal 13 & under +anything is no way
in hell. And the 17 only counts for girls boys have to be 18 to consent to
have sex with an adult 18 and up hecnce a 17 yo guy can not have sex with an
18 yo girl but and 17 yo girl can have sex with anybody 17yo & up.
But as shown by Brocc in the forwarded digest it can open u up to very nasty
leagal stuff and hence the SCA also. But the SCA does have a ruling that
protects the SCA. OTCs can be brought by almost anybody a 14 yo can go in
the store and by ASA or APAP but we cannot give OTCs in SCA to a minor
without the parent getting them. SO here is how I would handle it and
suggest maybe u do to if u choose to deal with it at all by carring condoms.
I plan to tell the 15 yo that as a SCA chirurgeon I can not give them the
condom as it is an OTC without their parent or loco parentis/guardian coming
to get it. But I tell the 15 yo to wait a minute while I take off my baldric
and than not an SCA chirurgeon but just a friend and I then ask what they
need it for & if sex, if they understand how to use a condom and if they
understand the risks of sex with or without a condom. I then give them the
condom after I here what would be for me acceptable answer! s or I explain
some stuff if I feel they need some explanation. If the 15yo is still plans
to have sex I give them the condom for the main reason they r going to have
it anyway & I would rather see it safe than not as many have already stated.
But by taking off your baldric the SCA is no longer involed and hence
protected but if u are in TX or OK u r cover by TX & OK law. This does not
apply at GW which is covered by MS law & I have no idea about that state.
But maybe as GW War Chirurgeon I may just as the Autocrat who is a;so a MS
papamedic.
This is only how I would deal with this and is only a suggestion as based on
the laws in OK & TX. And if U do not want to deal with this than either do
carry condoms or do not let people know u carry them and save them for use
by friends & yourself. And yes u can refuse by saying that u r out or do not
carry them.

 And as this ? has taken us out of the SCA to be able to deal with it I will
not sign as Herr Arkell MC KC Ansteorra but as 

Arkell who happens to be an SCA member & is Richard Hall LP, RN

richard hall <arkellvomcophus at yahoo.com> wrote:
Enjoy this ? asked of me as todays fun challange.

Arkell

Hope this is o.k. to put it this way ...If you think it needs changing
...please do so...                 You have a young man ,age ,around 15
yrs.old ,and he ask you for a comdom. Do you give to him or not ? Do you
talk to him about "why" he wants it..How are we as Chirurgeon to handal this
? This is after all a minor.

It's nice to be important..but....It's more important to be nice...

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