[Ansteorra-rapier] Ansteorra-rapier Digest, Vol 17, Issue 4

Wed Oct 10 06:25:31 PDT 2007

&nbsp;
&nbsp;Corvin,
&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Lets touch on your definition of a Duel. Are we talking brawling, a spontaneous street fight? Or are do we speak of a formal, drop the gauntlet, find a second, meet me at dawn, challenge? If it is spur of the moment fight, I doubt you would have the time to done your mail. Then, again, your rapier tough could come prepared for trouble. In the case of the formal duel, if you have time to plan, wouldn't you seek any advantage that would help save you life? There are several accounts of duelist arriving to fight with chain mail under their doublets. Not, sporting, but when your life is on the line , you must wonder how often it was considered.
&nbsp;
&nbsp;Just my two shillings
&nbsp;
&nbsp;Ashe

-- 
Thom Rolston
ihos at onebox.com - email
(512) 682-6901 x2721 - voicemail/fax

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Wilson 
Sent: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:33:13 -0500
To: 
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-rapier] Ansteorra-rapier Digest, Vol 17, Issue 4

Well, using the logic of "what would happen in a duel", most of us assume
that a duel is civilian combat and we are wearing civilian "street"
clothing, so why would a mail gauntlet have been worn? We have masks/helms
and gorgets, and additional protection for elbows &amp; knees in Cut &amp; Thrust,
but those are conventions we use for protection from injury. Unless
something is being done as "armor as worn", and Cut &amp; Thrust which
transitioned from armored to civilian combat, using a mail gauntlet to fight
a rapier duel seems inconsistent at least, goofy at most. IMO.

Corvin

-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 8:33 PM
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Subject: Ansteorra-rapier Digest, Vol 17, Issue 4

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: gauntlets and rapier (James Crouchet)
2. Re: gauntlets and rapier (Chris Zakes)
3. Re: gauntlets and rapier (Northern Cadet)
4. Re: gauntlets and rapier (DonPieter at aol.com)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 18:31:47 -0500
From: James Crouchet 
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-rapier] gauntlets and rapier
To: Ansteorra RapierNet 
Message-ID: &lt;470C0F63.4010105 at crouchet.com&gt;
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I will correct a bit of my language from my previous post -- this is
specifically a chain mail gauntlet, not any metal gauntlet. It is proof
against CUTS, not thrusts. Here is the language from the newest rules (which
hopefully were signed in at Crown):

Mail gauntlets shall be allowed as a parrying device and shall
protect the hand from cuts wherever it is covered by metal.
Gauntlets shall be constructed in a reasonably similar fashion to
that of historical examples. (i.e. actual chain mail and a leather
glove, all chain mail, etc.). Simulations made of cloth, paint, tape
and the like shall not be used as a mail gauntlet.

For any other gauntlets or armor, it would have to be played under the armor
as worn rule, as Piet said. The difference is that not only would both
fighters have to agree, the tournament organizers would have to ok it too.
If you have a cool idea it should not be hard to get that buy in.

In answer to Brian's question, yes, you can still grab the blade. I see no
rule against it. However, given the rules I see little advantage to grasping
with it rather than a leather gloved hand.

In answer to Rurik's query: No matter if the mail covers the palm or not,
the palm can still be damaged if it grabs a blade. The purpose of this rule:

If the blade that is grasped moves or twists in the grasping hand,
that hand is deemed disabled.

is to reduce incidents of fighters just hanging on to the blade and perhaps
wrestling over it. Also, it helps balance the game so the guy who's blade is
grasped is not helpless. Those needs do not change just because the hand is
covered with mail. Yes, it seems a bit unrealistic that a blade can still
slice through the mail but remember that in a real fight the person who's
blade is grasped would probably punch or kick the fighter grasping his
blade. Since in most duels the fighters were similarly armed I'll leave it
to your imagination what such a punch would do. Obviously that is not an
option in our game.

&gt;From a rules standpoint, I will also point out that the latter is an 
&gt;SCA
rule and so takes precedence over the Ansteorra specific mail gauntlet rule
(which is a kingdom specific application of the SCA armor as worn rule).

So, that is the rule no matter how you slice it ;-)

Christian Dor?, KRM

&gt; From: rurikthered at swordworks.org
&gt;
&gt; Also,
&gt;
&gt; I assume you are talkign about a glove with only chain on the back 
&gt; side and not necessarily a fine maille across the palm (like a 
&gt; butchers glove)in blade grabbing, correct?
&gt;
&gt; Rurik
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; 
&gt;&gt; So the hand with the guantlet can still be used for blade grabbing? 
&gt;&gt; Just wanting to make sure.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Brian
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; 

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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 18:34:35 -0500
From: Chris Zakes 
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-rapier] gauntlets and rapier
To: Ansteorra RapierNet 
Message-ID: &lt;7.0.1.0.2.20071009182610.03386b28 at gmail.com&gt;
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 03:26 PM 10/9/2007, you wrote:
&gt;Both Robert and Brian are correct about the gauntlets.
&gt;
&gt;Don Aeron added mail gauntlets in the April 2006 edition of the 
&gt;Ansteorran Rapier Rules as a new secondary. This is not restricted to 
&gt;"armor as worn" tournaments. However, as with all weapons and 
&gt;secondaries, you and your opponent must agree that those weapons are 
&gt;acceptable.
&gt;
&gt;There are a few points of note concerning mail gauntlets:
&gt;
&gt; * Basically, it must be a REAL metal/chain gauntlet and only the 
&gt; areas covered with metal are proof against hits.
&gt; * The gauntlet does NOT protect the hand from being damaged if the 
&gt; hand is grasping a blade and that blade moves or twists in the hand.
Okay... I have a leather gauntlet covered by a butcher's glove. It's fine
mesh mail over the entire hand down to the wrist. Are you saying that my
palm is *still* susceptible to being cut if I grab a blade with the mail
gauntlet? That doesn't seem right (and, arguably, it contradicts "When
wearing a mail gauntlet, the hand will be protected from cuts wherever it is
covered by steel.")

&gt; * The gauntlet is a secondary, not a gloved hand, and thus is NOT 
&gt; approved for use against the other fighter's person (no "fleeting 
&gt; contact").

What's the reasoning behind this? To prevent injuries? Have there been any?

-Tivar Moondragon
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 19:56:39 -0500
From: "Northern Cadet" 
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-rapier] gauntlets and rapier
To: "'Ansteorra RapierNet'" 
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I agree with Don Dore that a mail gauntlet isn't much use give the rules he
has quoted. I think the idea behind his rationale is reasonable if we keep
the concept of competition in mind. I'm not a fan of the way we utilize
blade grabbing and don't use it in the SCA due to it's restrictive rules. I
wonder if they might be modified for C&amp;T to be less restrictive and allow
for a more period interpretation? I have little concern that someone will
wrest my C&amp;T approved blades to the point of breakage.

Lord Gassion de Beaumarchais
Cadet to Don James Francis Navarre
Mooneschadowe Insegnante 

Control thyself, or be ruled by another... 

-----Original Message-----
From: ansteorra-rapier-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-rapier-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org] On Behalf Of James
Crouchet
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 6:32 PM
To: Ansteorra RapierNet
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-rapier] gauntlets and rapier

I will correct a bit of my language from my previous post -- this is
specifically a chain mail gauntlet, not any metal gauntlet. It is proof
against CUTS, not thrusts. Here is the language from the newest rules (which
hopefully were signed in at Crown):

Mail gauntlets shall be allowed as a parrying device and shall protect the
hand from cuts wherever it is covered by metal. Gauntlets shall be
constructed in a reasonably similar fashion to that of historical examples.
(i.e. actual chain mail and a leather glove, all chain mail, etc.).
Simulations made of cloth, paint, tape and the like shall not be used as a
mail gauntlet.

For any other gauntlets or armor, it would have to be played under the armor
as worn rule, as Piet said. The difference is that not only would both
fighters have to agree, the tournament organizers would have to ok it too.
If you have a cool idea it should not be hard to get that buy in.

In answer to Brian's question, yes, you can still grab the blade. I see no
rule against it. However, given the rules I see little advantage to grasping
with it rather than a leather gloved hand.

In answer to Rurik's query: No matter if the mail covers the palm or not,
the palm can still be damaged if it grabs a blade. The purpose of this rule:

If the blade that is grasped moves or twists in the grasping hand, that hand
is deemed disabled.

is to reduce incidents of fighters just hanging on to the blade and perhaps
wrestling over it. Also, it helps balance the game so the guy who's blade is
grasped is not helpless. Those needs do not change just because the hand is
covered with mail. Yes, it seems a bit unrealistic that a blade can still
slice through the mail but remember that in a real fight the person who's
blade is grasped would probably punch or kick the fighter grasping his
blade. Since in most duels the fighters were similarly armed I'll leave it
to your imagination what such a punch would do. Obviously that is not an
option in our game.

&gt;From a rules standpoint, I will also point out that the latter is an 
&gt;SCA
rule and so takes precedence over the Ansteorra specific mail gauntlet rule
(which is a kingdom specific application of the SCA armor as worn rule).

So, that is the rule no matter how you slice it ;-)

Christian Dor?, KRM

From: rurikthered at swordworks.org

Also,

I assume you are talkign about a glove with only chain on the back side

and not necessarily a fine maille across the palm (like a butchers

glove)in blade grabbing, correct?

Rurik

So the hand with the guantlet can still be used for blade grabbing? Just

wanting to make sure.

Brian

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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 21:31:34 EDT
From: DonPieter at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-rapier] gauntlets and rapier
To: ansteorra-rapier at lists.ansteorra.org
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

In a message dated 10/9/2007 3:27:50 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
james at crouchet.com writes:

Both Robert and Brian are correct about the gauntlets.

Don Aeron added mail gauntlets in the April 2006 edition of the Ansteorran
Rapier Rules as a new secondary. This is not restricted to "armor as worn" 
tournaments. However, as with all weapons and secondaries, you and your
opponent must agree that those weapons are acceptable.

There are a few points of note concerning mail gauntlets:

* Basically, it must be a REAL metal/chain gauntlet and only the areas

covered with metal are proof against hits. 
* The gauntlet does NOT protect the hand from being damaged if the
hand 
is grasping a blade and that blade moves or twists in the hand.
* The gauntlet is a secondary, not a gloved hand, and thus is NOT 
approved for use against the other fighter's person (no "fleeting
contact"). 
Christian Dor?, Kingdom Rapier Marshal

Ok so I was not all wrong in the thought that it is not an automatic armor.

It has to be OK'd by the opponent.
Pieter

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
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