edreese at m7bedlam.com
Thu Jul 17 08:25:33 PDT 2003
Yes, there would have been designs on the Greek's shields, though not
heraldic designs per se. They would have had things symbolic of good luck,
or indicative of their names -- perhaps a forerunner of canting arms. (I
have an example of this in my files, where a scorpion is, I believe
involved -- but those files are in storage in LA! Nash, gnarl!) Dolphins,
Gorgons, (Athens, good luck, my Arms and badge, ;-) emblems of city and
clan, all would be displayed in shields.
Second, in the middle ages, all "ancient worthies" were given allegorical
armoury. Thus, a literati of 13th century France would be aware of the
allegorical "heraldry" assigned to the worthy in particular. Since that's
not my period, I don't know what the shields are, so didn't answer. I
could, of course, fake it -- which I'm sure would have been done in period,
by saying that Maccabeus was fighting the Devil, of course, and, if I knew
this Duchess and her name and her heraldry and antecedents, would try and
turn my ignorance into a compliment.
But alas, I don't, so I can't!
Esther of Ennis Merth
At 09:25 AM 7/17/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>I have asked my husband, Istvan Temesvari, regarding your question, and he
>gave me additional information besides Madelina's. His answer is as
>Judas Maccabees was fighting the Greeks, but more specifically, Antiochus
>IV was of the Selucid dynasty. While he called himself Epiphanes, the Jews
>gave him the title "Epimanes" (madman). According to 1 Maccabees 9 in the
>Biblical Apocrypha, Bacchides and Alcimus were leading the army that
>killed Judas, and it was dispatched by Demetrius.
>As to the shield question, Istvan stated that shields were not decorated
>heraldically until the late Middle Ages, so there would be no design on
>the Greeks' shields.
>On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, willow Taylor wrote:
> > Dear fellow bards
> > I have a challenge for you.
> > A Duchess in 1203 France rushes down to where you are sitting and asked
> > you this question? Who was Judas Maccabee fighting when he was killed
> > and what do they have on their shields? Quick, there is Largess in the
> > answer. What will you tell her?
> > Willow de Wisp
> > ________________________________________________________________
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