[Bards] Challenge

ED Reese edreese at m7bedlam.com
Thu Jul 17 08:25:33 PDT 2003

Two things:

Yes, there would have been designs on the Greek's shields, though not 
heraldic designs per se. They would have had things symbolic of good luck, 
or indicative of their names -- perhaps a forerunner of canting arms. (I 
have an example of this in my files, where a scorpion is, I believe 
involved -- but those files are in storage in LA! Nash, gnarl!) Dolphins, 
Gorgons, (Athens, good luck, my Arms and badge, ;-) emblems of city and 
clan, all would be displayed in shields.

Second, in the middle ages, all "ancient worthies" were given allegorical 
armoury. Thus, a literati of 13th century France would be aware of the 
allegorical "heraldry" assigned to the worthy in particular. Since that's 
not my period, I don't know what the shields are, so didn't answer. I 
could, of course, fake it -- which I'm sure would have been done in period, 
by saying that Maccabeus was fighting the Devil, of course, and, if I knew 
this Duchess and her name and her heraldry and antecedents, would try and 
turn my ignorance into a compliment.

But alas, I don't, so I can't!

Esther of Ennis Merth

At 09:25 AM 7/17/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>Your Grace,
>I have asked my husband, Istvan Temesvari, regarding your question, and he
>gave me additional information besides Madelina's. His answer is as
>Judas Maccabees was fighting the Greeks, but more specifically, Antiochus
>IV was of the Selucid dynasty. While he called himself Epiphanes, the Jews
>gave him the title "Epimanes" (madman). According to 1 Maccabees 9 in the
>Biblical Apocrypha, Bacchides and Alcimus were leading the army that
>killed Judas, and it was dispatched by Demetrius.
>As to the shield question, Istvan stated that shields were not decorated
>heraldically until the late Middle Ages, so there would be no design on
>the Greeks' shields.
>Serena Dominicci
>On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, willow Taylor wrote:
> > Dear fellow bards
> >
> > I have a challenge for you.
> >
> > A Duchess in 1203 France rushes down to where you are sitting and asked
> > you this question?  Who was Judas Maccabee fighting when he was killed
> > and what do they have on their shields? Quick, there is Largess in the
> > answer. What will you tell her?
> >
> > Willow de Wisp
> >
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