[ANSTHRLD] question about baronial service order award charters

Jay Rudin rudin at peoplepc.com
Thu Aug 20 10:52:01 PDT 2009


kevinkeary wrote:

>A while back I tried to derive an answer to the question "If an 
>incoming baron or baroness does not already have the baronial service 
>award, are they given it with the barony? 
>
>Evidence in Ansteorra's OP seemed to indicate it could go either way -- 
>I found numerous examples of ex-landeds with their service awards dated 
>the same as their investiture date, and I found numerous examples of 
>ex-landeds with their service awards dated after that, often after they 
>had stepped down.

This question is easy to answer, for any herald with a long enough memory.  I guess that means it's up to me.This was decided in Ansteorra when the question came before the second Crown (Lloyd and Joselyn), the first Principal Herald (Aureliane), and the second precedence herald (Adelicia).

They decided, based in part on the order constitutions (not charters, which are the scrolls) that the Principal of the Order had all rights and privileges that Companions have, and that Companions have the right to remain members in perpetuity.  At that time, all baronial orders had the exact same wording in their constitutions.

Over time, this ruling was remembered in the central region (where Lloyd, Aureliane, Joselyn and Adelicia lived), but forgotten in some other places.  Therefore Steppes has always enforced that ruling, and other baronies have not.

Since the ruling is not published in kingdom law, it cannot be legally forced on the baronies that stopped using it, so it really depends on the history of that barony.  Any barony who follows the ruling of the Crown and Principal Herald is clearly legally correct.  Those that somehow and somewhen decided that their B&Bs wouldn't automatically have it?  Well, people who think they don't have an award don't have it, for all practical purposes.

>Someone, I forget who, told me it depended on how the order's charter 
>was written. If the Oak doesn't HAVE a charter, I have no idea how to 
>derive an answer.

The charters are the scrolls given out in court.  The constitutions are the rules establishing the order.  In any barony that let go of the heraldic ruling, the constitution could establish legally that the B&Bs don't get to keep it.  The Oak certainly has a constitution, but I doubt if anyone has looked at it in the last quarter century.  It was one of the fill-in-the-blank ones written by the first king and queen, and was the basis of the original ruling.

The Oak has always abided by the heraldic ruling.  (Lloyd and Joselyn have been vicar and vicaress, and Aureliane and Adelicia have both been baroness.  We weren't likely to forget it.)

Adelicia and I, the fourth rulers of the Steppes, were the first ones to already have the Oak when we stepped up.

Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin

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