[ANSTHRLD] question about baronial service order award charters

kevinkeary at aol.com kevinkeary at aol.com
Thu Aug 20 11:09:28 PDT 2009


Thank you, Robin. THIS answer I'm saving. I've been looking for it for 
a long time.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 20, 2009 12:52 pm
Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] question about baronial service order award 
charters



kevinkeary wrote:

>A while back I tried to derive an answer to the question "If an
>incoming baron or baroness does not already have the baronial service
>award, are they given it with the barony?
>
>Evidence in Ansteorra's OP seemed to indicate it could go either way 
--
>I found numerous examples of ex-landeds with their service awards 
dated
>the same as their investiture date, and I found numerous examples of
>ex-landeds with their service awards dated after that, often after 
they
>had stepped down.

This question is easy to answer, for any herald with a long enough 
memory.  I
guess that means it's up to me.This was decided in Ansteorra when the 
question
came before the second Crown (Lloyd and Joselyn), the first Principal 
Herald
(Aureliane), and the second precedence herald (Adelicia).

They decided, based in part on the order constitutions (not charters, 
which are
the scrolls) that the Principal of the Order had all rights and 
privileges that
Companions have, and that Companions have the right to remain members 
in
perpetuity.  At that time, all baronial orders had the exact same 
wording in
their constitutions.

Over time, this ruling was remembered in the central region (where 
Lloyd,
Aureliane, Joselyn and Adelicia lived), but forgotten in some other 
places.
Therefore Steppes has always enforced that ruling, and other baronies 
have not.

Since the ruling is not published in kingdom law, it cannot be legally 
forced on
the baronies that stopped using it, so it really depends on the history 
of that
barony.  Any barony who follows the ruling of the Crown and Principal 
Herald is
clearly legally correct.  Those that somehow and somewhen decided that 
their
B&Bs wouldn't automatically have it?  Well, people who think they don't 
have an
award don't have it, for all practical purposes.

>Someone, I forget who, told me it depended on how the order's charter
>was written. If the Oak doesn't HAVE a charter, I have no idea how to
>derive an answer.

The charters are the scrolls given out in court.  The constitutions are 
the
rules establishing the order.  In any barony that let go of the 
heraldic ruling,
the constitution could establish legally that the B&Bs don't get to 
keep it.
The Oak certainly has a constitution, but I doubt if anyone has looked 
at it in
the last quarter century.  It was one of the fill-in-the-blank ones 
written by
the first king and queen, and was the basis of the original ruling.

The Oak has always abided by the heraldic ruling.  (Lloyd and Joselyn 
have been
vicar and vicaress, and Aureliane and Adelicia have both been baroness. 
 We
weren't likely to forget it.)

Adelicia and I, the fourth rulers of the Steppes, were the first ones 
to already
have the Oak when we stepped up.

Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin

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