[ANSTHRLD] Tincture Words in Order Names

Marie de Blois erminespot at gmail.com
Thu Jan 29 09:50:38 PST 2009


On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 10:45 AM, Marie de Blois <erminespot at gmail.com> wrote:
> I also would direct your attention to the November LoAR, just came out
> (and not even on the web site yet), which addresses this issue in
> order names very directly (both for Azure and Sable).  Gimme a minute
> and I'll go dig it up from my email.

Specifically, it's in the Pends section, under An Tir:

Wealdsmere, Barony of.  Order name Order of the Azure Glove.

    The LoI cited the following precedent in support of the
registerability of this order name:

        Hidden Mountain, Barony of. Award name Award of the Azure
Cloud (see RETURNS for badge). In general, names of heraldic tinctures
are not registerable as part of order names where the language is
English, because we have no examples of such usage and because the
names of most heraldic tinctures were not used as ordinary adjectives
in English until the very end of the 16th C. Azure appears to be the
exception. According to the OED, the noun azure, meaning "A bright
blue pigment or dye; ellipt. a fabric dyed of this colour", dates to
at least the late 14th C. Chaucer mentions a figure "Cloothed in
Asure". This and the citations provided by the submitter are
sufficient to give them the benefit of the doubt that azure (like
crimson) is used as an ordinary color name and hence is registerable
as part of an order name. [LoAR 06/2006, Atlantia-A]

    However, the August 2005 Cover Letter discussing patterns of
period order names gives a stricter criterion for the use of color
terms in order names:

        Argent Snail, in arguing for more generous interpretations of
patterns notes, "since we know that there were period order names of
the form color (including Gold/golden) object, any color object should
be considered acceptable, and not one step from period practice, even
if the submitted color was not used in a period order name." While we
are unwilling to extend the interpretation of period order names to
include any color (images of "Order of Dead Spaniard Lion" leap to
mind--"dead spaniard" being a fabric color found in Elizabethan
England), we are often far stricter in our interpretations concerning
colors than we are of other patterns. Therefore, since heraldic
objects may be found in any heraldic tincture, the ordinary color name
for any heraldic tincture may be used as part of an order name when
combined with a heraldic charge (which, if applied to the example
above, gives us the "Order of the Green Lion," a perfectly ordinary
name.) Following this pattern comes with no penalty; even if a
particular color found in heraldry is not found in any order name, its
use in an order name still follows the established pattern. This does
not overturn the precedent disallowing the registration of Orders of
the form heraldic tincture name + object in English, since we have no
examples of English order names that use heraldic tincture names. So,
for example, while the Order of the Green Lion would be held to follow
demonstrated patterns, Order of the Lion Vert or Order of the Vert
Lion would not...[Order names for heraldic charges] may contain the
ordinary color names of any heraldic tincture [emphasis added].

    The June 2006 precedent demonstrates that azure or asure was used
as a color term in English, but it does not show that this term was
the ordinary color term for blue, as required by the August 2005
precedent. The two precedents seem to be in conflict with each other,
but since the June 2006 precedent does not specifically mention the
earlier August 2005 provisions, we cannot conclude that the August
2005 precedent was overturned. We would like the College's commentary
on whether there is in fact a discrepancy between the two precedents
and, if so, which of the two should be upheld.

    This was item 10 on the An Tir letter of July 31, 2008.

Wealdsmere, Barony of.  Order name Order of the Sable Sleeve.

    Precedent, confirmed as recently as August 2008 (v. Gleann Abhann,
Kingdom Of, Order of the Sable Banner), has long held that the
heraldic tincture sable is not registerable in order names because we
do not have examples of order names in English using the heraldic
tincture names. The LoI noted that sable was used in English as a
color term outside of heraldic contexts, and that therefore this ban
should be overturned on the basis of this precedent:

[The rest is the same text as the previous item, and thus I'm omitting it here]


So - "currently indeterminate".  [wry grin]

Marie



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