[ANSTHRLD] Name documentation

Sat May 23 20:13:02 PDT 2009

Thank you.  That gives me plenty to work with.  Sometimes it is as easy as 
knowing where to look or what to pull up.

Coenred

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Coblaith Muimnech" <Coblaith at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA,Inc." 
<heralds at lists.ansteorra.org>
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Name documentation

> Coenred aet Rauenesdale wrote:
>> . . .Duncan Maxwell ran into a conflict.. . .The recommendation is  that 
>> he add a locative to the name. . .His persona is mid to late  16th 
>> century Scot.  We have found on the internet that there is a  border 
>> region called Nithsdale and that there was actually a  Maxwell presence 
>> their.  As such he wants to submit Duncan Maxwell  of Nithsdale.
>
> Quick check with the ILoI. . .Looks like you found "Duncan" in "Early 
> 16th Century Scottish Lowland Names" <http://www.medievalscotland.org/ 
> scotnames/lowland16/meninstances.shtml>, where that form is found 5  times 
> between 1500 and 1514 and 20 more times in suspect  transcriptions of 
> documents dated to between 1502 and 1521, and are  using a mundane name 
> allowance for "Maxwell", which you found in  Black’s _Surnames of 
> Scotland_ (1st Ed., page 589-590) but with no  dates.  (It's always a good 
> idea to be specific about how all the  phrases in a name were documented 
> when you're asking for help-- 
> especially with construction--so it can be evaluated as a whole.)
>
> Just so you know, Aryanhwy merch Catmael's "Index of Scots Names  Found in 
> Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue" cites five reliably- dated 
> instances of "Maxwell" <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/ 
> scots/dost/maxwell.html> from your client's period (and a couple of 
> "Duncan" <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/scots/dost/ duncan.html>, 
> though you don't really need those) .
>
>
>> My question is: how would I document this construction of the name?
>
> Find some examples of names of the form "[given] [inherited surname]  of 
> [name of the same sort of place that Nithsdale is]" in Scots  contexts 
> from your client's period.
>
> If you can't do that, document the use of annotations of the form "of 
> [name of the same sort of place that Nithsdale is]" after names of  the 
> form "[given name] [surname]" in records from the period, and  argue that 
> you're submitting a documentary form.
>
> I found in the Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue mention of:
>
> a "Johne Wardlaw of Torry" from a document from 1532 <http:// 
> www.dsl.ac.uk/getent4.php?query=By>,
>
> a "William Caverhill of Breryʒardis" from a document from 1542 
> <http://www.dsl.ac.uk/getent4.php?query=brery>,
>
> a "Martene Ellot of Braidlie" from a document from 1582 <http:// 
> www.dsl.ac.uk/getent4.php?query=causing>, and
>
> a "Iohn Campbell of Caddell" from a document from 1596 <http:// 
> www.dsl.ac.uk/getent4.php?query=cloud>.
>
> That should suffice to establish the general pattern "[given]  [inherited 
> surname] [locative byname using 'of']".  Only one problem  remains. 
> Nithsdale is a region (and a river valley).  I haven't been  able to 
> determine what types of places some of those mentioned above  are, but all 
> those I have been able to identify are towns.  Towns and  regions are 
> treated differently in many naming traditions.
>
>
> I did find in the Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue mention of:
>
> a "Thomas of Strathern" in a quote from a document from 1462 <http:// 
> www.dsl.ac.uk/getent4.php?query=Dwell> and
>
> a "Richard of Strathern" in one from 1472 <http://www.dsl.ac.uk/ 
> getent4.php?query=analy>.
>
> Strathearn is a region (and a river valley)  <http://en.wikipedia.org/ 
> wiki/Strathearn>, so this is a good indication that locatives 
> incorporating the names of regions were at least sometimes used a  century 
> before your client's period.
>
> Mentions of:
>
> "Iames Ogilby of Arely", in a quote from a document from 1491 <http:// 
> www.dsl.ac.uk/getent4.php?query=Banrent> and
>
> "Johne of Bute" in one from 1507 <http://www.dsl.ac.uk/getent4.php? 
> query=Blanket>
>
> further support the use in that period of the names of places bigger  than 
> towns in locatives formed with "of" (though only "Iames Ogilby  of Arely" 
> shows such a name used after a surname).  Airlie is a  parish 
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airlie,_Angus> and Bute is an  island 
> <http://www.beautifulbritain.co.uk/htm/outandabout/ isle_of_bute.htm>.
>
>
>> Secondly, do I have enough evidence of the existence of this area  in 
>> period?
>
> I don't think there's any question the area existed.  (The British  Isles 
> haven't been all that seismically active over the last few  hundred 
> years.)  What you need is evidence that the place name was  used in your 
> client's period.  And no, I didn't see any of that on  the websites you 
> cited.  Fortunately. . .
>
> I found a mention of "Nidisdaill" in a quote from a document from  1531 
> <http://www.dsl.ac.uk/getent4.php?query=Hals> (bibliographic  citation at 
> <http://www.dsl.ac.uk/getent7.php?query=Bell.+Boece>).
>
> I also found a (Latin-language) map from 1573 that includes "Nidis  dale" 
> <http://www.nls.uk/maps/scotland/detail.cfm?id=128>
>
> and two from 1595 that include "Nythes daill" <http://www.nls.uk/maps/ 
> scotland/detail.cfm?id=130> <http://www.nls.uk/maps/scotland/ 
> detail.cfm?id=131>.
>
>
> In addition, Aryanhwy merch Catmael's "Index of Scots names found in 
> 'Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue'" includes a single instance  of 
> "Nithisdaill" from 1624 <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/scots/ 
> dost/nithsdale.html>.  It's post-period, but in the absence of better 
> evidence a citation from the first half of the 17th century is often 
> accepted as an indication that a given form *might* have been used in  the 
> 16th.  Personally, I'd choose one of the documented 16th-century  forms, 
> since they're available.
>
>
> If you're not satisfied with the support for a late-16th-century "of 
> [region]" locative, the maps mentioned above and others on the site  of 
> the National Library of Scotland <http://www.nls.uk/maps/scotland/ 
> index.html> include the names of any number of towns, and Aryanhwy's 
> article documents a number of "of"-style locatives that your client  might 
> like.
>
>
>> As we are deployed right now and have no access to a library, this  is 
>> really the best I can do.
>
> It's amazing what you can find in the Medieval Names Archive <http:// 
> www.s-gabriel.org/names/>.  I always start there.  Google and  Wikipedia 
> are very useful, too.  Those three led me to everything I  cited above.
>
>
> Coblaith Muimnech
> <mailto:Coblaith at sbcglobal.net>
> <http://coblaith.net>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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