[ANSTHRLD] Name documentation
Coenred
coenred at hellsgate-sca.org
Sat May 23 20:13:02 PDT 2009
Thank you. That gives me plenty to work with. Sometimes it is as easy as
knowing where to look or what to pull up.
Coenred
----- Original Message -----
From: "Coblaith Muimnech" <Coblaith at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA,Inc."
<heralds at lists.ansteorra.org>
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Name documentation
> Coenred aet Rauenesdale wrote:
>> . . .Duncan Maxwell ran into a conflict.. . .The recommendation is that
>> he add a locative to the name. . .His persona is mid to late 16th
>> century Scot. We have found on the internet that there is a border
>> region called Nithsdale and that there was actually a Maxwell presence
>> their. As such he wants to submit Duncan Maxwell of Nithsdale.
>
> Quick check with the ILoI. . .Looks like you found "Duncan" in "Early
> 16th Century Scottish Lowland Names" <http://www.medievalscotland.org/
> scotnames/lowland16/meninstances.shtml>, where that form is found 5 times
> between 1500 and 1514 and 20 more times in suspect transcriptions of
> documents dated to between 1502 and 1521, and are using a mundane name
> allowance for "Maxwell", which you found in Black’s _Surnames of
> Scotland_ (1st Ed., page 589-590) but with no dates. (It's always a good
> idea to be specific about how all the phrases in a name were documented
> when you're asking for help--
> especially with construction--so it can be evaluated as a whole.)
>
> Just so you know, Aryanhwy merch Catmael's "Index of Scots Names Found in
> Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue" cites five reliably- dated
> instances of "Maxwell" <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/
> scots/dost/maxwell.html> from your client's period (and a couple of
> "Duncan" <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/scots/dost/ duncan.html>,
> though you don't really need those) .
>
>
>> My question is: how would I document this construction of the name?
>
> Find some examples of names of the form "[given] [inherited surname] of
> [name of the same sort of place that Nithsdale is]" in Scots contexts
> from your client's period.
>
> If you can't do that, document the use of annotations of the form "of
> [name of the same sort of place that Nithsdale is]" after names of the
> form "[given name] [surname]" in records from the period, and argue that
> you're submitting a documentary form.
>
> I found in the Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue mention of:
>
> a "Johne Wardlaw of Torry" from a document from 1532 <http://
> www.dsl.ac.uk/getent4.php?query=By>,
>
> a "William Caverhill of Breryʒardis" from a document from 1542
> <http://www.dsl.ac.uk/getent4.php?query=brery>,
>
> a "Martene Ellot of Braidlie" from a document from 1582 <http://
> www.dsl.ac.uk/getent4.php?query=causing>, and
>
> a "Iohn Campbell of Caddell" from a document from 1596 <http://
> www.dsl.ac.uk/getent4.php?query=cloud>.
>
> That should suffice to establish the general pattern "[given] [inherited
> surname] [locative byname using 'of']". Only one problem remains.
> Nithsdale is a region (and a river valley). I haven't been able to
> determine what types of places some of those mentioned above are, but all
> those I have been able to identify are towns. Towns and regions are
> treated differently in many naming traditions.
>
>
> I did find in the Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue mention of:
>
> a "Thomas of Strathern" in a quote from a document from 1462 <http://
> www.dsl.ac.uk/getent4.php?query=Dwell> and
>
> a "Richard of Strathern" in one from 1472 <http://www.dsl.ac.uk/
> getent4.php?query=analy>.
>
> Strathearn is a region (and a river valley) <http://en.wikipedia.org/
> wiki/Strathearn>, so this is a good indication that locatives
> incorporating the names of regions were at least sometimes used a century
> before your client's period.
>
> Mentions of:
>
> "Iames Ogilby of Arely", in a quote from a document from 1491 <http://
> www.dsl.ac.uk/getent4.php?query=Banrent> and
>
> "Johne of Bute" in one from 1507 <http://www.dsl.ac.uk/getent4.php?
> query=Blanket>
>
> further support the use in that period of the names of places bigger than
> towns in locatives formed with "of" (though only "Iames Ogilby of Arely"
> shows such a name used after a surname). Airlie is a parish
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airlie,_Angus> and Bute is an island
> <http://www.beautifulbritain.co.uk/htm/outandabout/ isle_of_bute.htm>.
>
>
>> Secondly, do I have enough evidence of the existence of this area in
>> period?
>
> I don't think there's any question the area existed. (The British Isles
> haven't been all that seismically active over the last few hundred
> years.) What you need is evidence that the place name was used in your
> client's period. And no, I didn't see any of that on the websites you
> cited. Fortunately. . .
>
> I found a mention of "Nidisdaill" in a quote from a document from 1531
> <http://www.dsl.ac.uk/getent4.php?query=Hals> (bibliographic citation at
> <http://www.dsl.ac.uk/getent7.php?query=Bell.+Boece>).
>
> I also found a (Latin-language) map from 1573 that includes "Nidis dale"
> <http://www.nls.uk/maps/scotland/detail.cfm?id=128>
>
> and two from 1595 that include "Nythes daill" <http://www.nls.uk/maps/
> scotland/detail.cfm?id=130> <http://www.nls.uk/maps/scotland/
> detail.cfm?id=131>.
>
>
> In addition, Aryanhwy merch Catmael's "Index of Scots names found in
> 'Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue'" includes a single instance of
> "Nithisdaill" from 1624 <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/scots/
> dost/nithsdale.html>. It's post-period, but in the absence of better
> evidence a citation from the first half of the 17th century is often
> accepted as an indication that a given form *might* have been used in the
> 16th. Personally, I'd choose one of the documented 16th-century forms,
> since they're available.
>
>
> If you're not satisfied with the support for a late-16th-century "of
> [region]" locative, the maps mentioned above and others on the site of
> the National Library of Scotland <http://www.nls.uk/maps/scotland/
> index.html> include the names of any number of towns, and Aryanhwy's
> article documents a number of "of"-style locatives that your client might
> like.
>
>
>> As we are deployed right now and have no access to a library, this is
>> really the best I can do.
>
> It's amazing what you can find in the Medieval Names Archive <http://
> www.s-gabriel.org/names/>. I always start there. Google and Wikipedia
> are very useful, too. Those three led me to everything I cited above.
>
>
> Coblaith Muimnech
> <mailto:Coblaith at sbcglobal.net>
> <http://coblaith.net>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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