HERB - the period pumpkin

[khkeeler]

RAISYA wrote:

> I've felt the edible gourd theory for the medieval pumpkin is a little shaky,
> I guess, because the "authorities" never seem to be proposing a specific
> gourd. 
But, which authorities? Medievalists, historians and the like don't know
their plants, or care.
Botanists don't care about 1300 in Italy--they generalize over the
Middle Ages with a broad brush and go on to modern botanical questions.
And, language is clearly a problem here: names varied. And, we might be
talking about  vegetables that are extinct or heritage or may have never
made it to the US.

> I'm also not entirely convinced that they can state with absolute
> certainty that none of the four species of "squash" existed in Europe.  
Modern science never claims absolute certainty.  What it does do is
compare probabilities.  Thus, _Cucurbita_ (the genus of "squashes" and
"pumpkin") has lots of wild races, lots of cultivated varietiess, all
over the Americas.  _Cucumis_ and _Citrullus_ have wild relatives and
cultivated races all over the Old World. _Lagenaria_ may have naturally
occurred in both Africa and South America (Hancock, Plant evolution and
the origin of crop species. 1992).  Thus, they'd say its more probable
that the plant in a Medieval painting is variety of _Cucumis_ or
_Citrullus_, than of _Cucurbita_

>There is one variety of C. maxima that is said to be native to Australia. 
What is the source of this information?  

> If it's true, then squash were not absolutely limited to the New World.
Yes, but a biogeographer would not find "native to Australia" much
comfort.
Our modern continents were unified at the time of the dinosaurs as one
continent (Pangea). Groups of organisms spread out at that time--pine
trees evolved in temperate zones on the north part of Pangea, auricarias
and podocarpus (e.g. Norfolk island "pine") in the temperate zones of
the south.  The continents broke up N-S first (North America-Europe-Asia
(not India)) and South America-Africa-Antarctica-India-Australia.  The
North American part (Laurasia) remained together across the north and
traded animals and plants for a very long time.  The south
(Gondwanaland) stayed together long enough for flightless birds to
evolve (rheas in South America, ostrich in Africa, kiwi in New Zealand)
and then broke apart with South America, Africa, India, Australia and
Antarctica floating as big isolated island continents. Africa soon
connected with southwestern Laurasia.  Antartica migrated to the south
pole and everything died.  South America connected with North America
after Laurasia broke up (not very long ago in geological time.)  That's
why South America's animals and plants are so different!  India very
recently in its northward movement hit the mainland of Asia and is still
driving northward.  The Himalayas are the tallest mountains in the world
because where continents collide, mountain building is a common
consequence.  India into Asia is the newest big collision.

Australia is still an island, its animals and plants are distinctly
southern hemisphere and while this history shows you how they could be
shared with South America it is very distinct from Europe.  Further,
there was little or no exchange between the people of Australia and the
rest of Eurasia until last century. So, unlike watermelons being grown
in China and Africa and Europe before recorded history, tho their wild
relatives are in Africa, Old World people didn't trade with Australia
(lots of lines of evidence).
Biogeographically putting an organism in Australia will keep it out of
Europe until the 1800s rather than the 1490s.

> I do appreciate all the information I've gotten here, but I think I have to
> conclude that the "pompion" is still an unknown.
Yes,  one of the reasons SCA research is such fun is because it didn't
interest academics and so you can't look up the answers.  And the
cultivated plants are very difficult--they've been moved around, bred to
look diffferent or grow differently (or hybridized), been given names
that change over time, some places they've escaped and been growing wild
for hundreds of years and so on.

Cheers,
Agnes
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