[Sca-cooks] Re:Period Ices/Sorbets/Cold Treats?

[Elise Fleming]

I wrote:
> 1200: Flavored water ices were known in Asia for centuries.
Venetian
> adventurer Marco Polo brings back to Italy recipes for making
these
> treats.

Adamantius wrote:
>Okay. The most common of this type of story seems to be in
connection
>with pasta, which we know to be false. I've read a fair amount of
the
>writings of Marco Polo, but not all of them.  Is there really _any_
>reason whatsoever to think that Marco brought back to Italy any
recipes
>at all? Of any kind? Anti-fungal foot ointment? Tuna-noodle
casserole?
>Bathtub gin? Anything?

So, are you agreeing with me that the 1200 citation is probably
incorrect (I'd really like to say "ridiculous")?  My point (which
you probably got but I'm not sure about that <g>) was that the
newspaper's "sources" had no period documentation at all but just
referred back to industry publicists.

>I'm carefully avoiding the (in my opinion) misused catch-all phrase
that
>has been applied to stories for which there appears to be no
foundation
>[presented], but can anybody _really_ document, as in contemporary
>recipe or historical description, etc., the existence of an
ice-based
>sweet in period Europe?

Not as far as I can tell.  This may be one of those "ever-repeating"
threads.  "It's hot.  I like sherbet.  How can I document it?"
"It's breakfast time.  I'm not awake.  I need caffeine.  Can we
document coffee?"

> So far what we now seem to have is some evidence
>for them in Heian(?) Japan, and the assertion that we had some
>documentation on this list at some previous date, but which is
currently
>unavailable.

If it existed in period, is there any evidence that it existed when
the Portuguese came to Japan?  Is there any record that ice
cream/sherbet/sorbet/cold sweet treats already existed when other
Westerners began cultural inroads?  If not, is there any reason to
think it would have been period and then disappeared??

Alys Katharine