[Sca-cooks] Catholic/Christian, was: The Fallwell/Robertson statements

[Barbara Nostrand]

Noble Cousin!

Greetings from Solveig! I fear that you have gotten the positions
of Paul (aka Saul) and Shimon backwards. Go look up the account of
Paul's arrival in Jerusalem. The dispute is whether or not his
uncircumcised protoge was part of club or not and more generally
whether or not the new movement was open to non-Jews. The ultimate
decision was to follow extant Jewish practice (something not
made clear in the Christian text) which required non-Jews who wished
to live with Jews to obey the seven Noachide Laws. These are the laws
which show up in the Book of Acts. Paul was challenging the notion
that proto-Christianity was a Jewish sect limited to halachic Jews.

The one thing that is quite clear is that the proto-church in
Jerusalem was relatively conservative compared to the apostles
who traveled to Greek cities:

11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the
Gentiles had also received the word of God.

11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the
circumcision contended with him, 11:3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men
uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

11:4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded
it by order unto them, saying, 11:5 I was in the city of Joppa
praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as
it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and
it came even to me: 11:6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes,
I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts,
and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

11:7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

11:8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at
any time entered into my mouth.

11:9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath
cleansed, that call not thou common.

Shimon is generally described as being comparatively conservative and
reluctant to drop traditional practice. As I recall, a conservative
position is repeatedly put into his mouth in the gospels as well.
Paul is another matter. He is introduced engaging in a questionable
crusade against the proto-christians and later becomes just as radical
in another direction.

15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren,
and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye
cannot be saved.

15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and
disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and
certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and
elders about this question.

15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through
Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and
they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

The decision handed down in Jerusalem basically affirmed the traditional
Jewish approach to living with non-Jews. The non-Jews would effectively
accept the Law of the Noachide.

First the question is asked:

15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which
believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to
command them to keep the law of Moses.

The ultimate question is as to their status. Jewish Law allows non
Jews who follow the Law of the Noachide to live among Jews.

Ultimately, James declares the decision:

15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from
among the Gentiles are turned to God: 15:20 But that we write unto
them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from
fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him,
being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

What is going on here? James is referring to the Noachide law in
Breshit which was handed down after the flood. This is nothing more
or less than a recitation of extant pharaseic law concerning
non-Jews living amongst Jews. Essentially, the text has them agree
that their movement would consist of both Jews and non-Jews who
agreed to live by these long-established principles.

The Law of the Noachide is set forth in Bereshit 9:1-17. The pharisees
enumerated seven laws:

	1) Establish courts of justice
	2) No blasphemy
	3) No idolatry
	4) No incest
	5) No bloodshed
	6) No robbery
	7) No eating flesh cut from a living animal

Given the situation, the courts of justice already existed and others
were already subject to Roman law. Thus, the recitation in Acts focuses
on those things which were peculiar to living amongst Jews.

On the "veneration" of Saints. While I am confident that many Catholics
do not worship saints, I now have a hard time believing that all refrain
from such worship. One of my various employment interviews had me lodged
overnight in a monastic residence of some sort. In the adjoining room, a
group of monks was praying away loudly calling upon the Virgin Mary to do
all sorts of things and invoking the trinity in their sign off to the
BVM. The words that they were saying appeared to elevate the BVM above(!)
the trinity. I was startled and rather perplexed. Knowing naught else to
do, I pulled out my Sidur and chanted the Shema and Alenu. It was really
really spooky. They really did sound like they were earnestly praying to
this long dead Jewish woman. Maybe I should have chanted Kadish as well.
Maybe I did. It's been over a year now. I expected them to invoke the
trinity at the end of their prayers, but this incessant plea to Miriam
with the trinity as a postscript was rather more than I expected. I
had previously stayed in Catholic guest houses on interviews, but this
was way way more than I had previously encountered.

					Your Humble Servant
					Solveig Throndardottir
					Amateur Scholar

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| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D.         | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM       |
| deMoivre Institute              | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est      |
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