[Sca-cooks] Japanese (was: What did they..)

[Barbara Nostrand]

Noble Cousin!

Greetings from Solveig!

>As I said in the first post, out of period :) OK give you the benefit of the
>doubt, nearly out of period and difinitely NOT Samauri :)

Why are you continuing to presume? Why not add such phrases as "I don't
know" and "Gosh I didn't know that" to  your lexicon. I find myself using
them fairly frequently.

	It is a curious fact that the opening of diplomatic intercourse
	between Japan and European states was brought about the Fathers
	in Kyushu, for early in 1582, by arrangement of the Jesuits in
	Japan with their Society at home, a mission of four well-born
	[read buke - aka "samurai"] Japanese youths was sent to the King
	of Spain and the Pope by the Christian daimyos [provincial military
	dictators] Otomo, Arima, and Omura. The four boys, accompanied by
	Valignano left Nagasaki harbour in a Portugese ship for Macao,
	where they stayed for some months to study while waiting for the
	monsoon. At the end of 1582 they sailed for Malacca, and thence,
	after a voyage not free from dangers and hardships, they reached
	Goa, where Valignano left them.

	Leaving Cochin in the company of three other Portugese vessels,
	they sailed round the Cape of Good Hope and at last reached Lisbon
	three years after their departure from Japan. They were well
	received wherever they stopped on their way to Madrid, and at their
	destination they were welcomed gracefully by Philip II, the most
	powerful monarch in Europe, then ruling both Spain and Portugal.
	Soon afterwards they left Spain in a Spanish ship for Italy, where
	they went first to Florence and thence proceeded to Rome.

	The Pope, Gregory XIII, insisted upon a brilliant ceremony, against
	the wishes of the Jesuits. Wearing Japanese costume, the young men
	rode on fine horses in a spendid procession to the Vatican. They
	were received in the Sala Regia, where they kissed [remember that
	they were Catholics] the Pope's foot and were embraced by him in
	affectionate greetings. From the point of view of the Jesuits the
	mission was a great success, for their Society was granted a
	monopoly of evangelisation in Japan, and was promised a handsome
	annual subsidy. The envoys' stay in Rome was somewhat prolonged
	owing to the death of Gregory and the election of Sixtus. They
	returned to Japan in the summer of 1590, having been absent for
	over eight years.

				Sansom, A History of Japan [vol 2] 1334-1615
				Stanford University Press 1961
				pages 298-299

Note. At about the same time, Japanese were receiving licenses to conquor
       Indo-China. Hideyoshi sent an offer to Taiwan to annex the island
       which failed for lack of a government to receive the offer, and
       Hideyoshi considered conquoring both India and Iran after of course
       conquering China. However, Hideyoshi died before Japan could subdue
       Korea.

>I thought we went to 1550 now to allow the musketeers?

The governming documents at http://www.sca.org say sixteenth century.
Other documents say 1650. Documentary cutoff is generally 1650 to
allow for recording stuff that was going on in 1600.

>Anyway next statement covered that They did not per sec "go" as much
>as they were taken by the Priests as "trophies" of the converts by
>the priests that went to Japan along with the silk,.gold, opium
>traders from Portegual and Spain.

There is a rather interesting expedition which took place about 1603 where
the Japanese took their own ship across the Pacific to Mexico where they
contracted for Spanish transport to Europe.

I urge you to read "Giving Up the Gun." 16th century Japan had huge
armies armed with canons and muskets. According to this book, 16th
century Japan had more than fifty percent of the world stockpile of
firearms.

>There was not a problem with killing them on their return from what
>I understand because they were under the protection of the church
>and at
>that time the Shogun was afraid of losing the trade in silks from China.

Please read real history books NOT Jame's Clavel's novel. Japan was trying
to CONQUOR CHINA during the period that you are writing about. There is a
delightful book called "Learning from Shogun" which discusses where Clavel
gets it right and where he gets it wrong.

>They also had been disowned by their clans for joining the church.

Also false. Read the text quoted from Sansom.

I'm sorry to hear about your wife's death. As for martial arts, Japanese
like to claim antiquity for all sorts of things which aren't really very
old at all. To some extent this was enforced during the Edo Period when
teachers and practitioners of art forms of all kinds had to claim: antiquity,
secret techniques, and a theoretical basis in order to gain permission to
operate.

As for the history notes. If you do not like Sansom, I do have a Japanese
high school history text around here somewhere and can probably find a
bunch of the same information in it. If you want a larger and more recent
English text on Japanese history, I recommend the Cambridge History of
Japan.

					Your Humble Servant
					Solveig Throndardottir
					Amateur Scholar

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| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D.         | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS  |
| deMoivre Institute              | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est      |
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