[Sca-cooks] Re: coffyns

[she not]

Bear (referring to the interesting conversation with adamantius) asked:  Do we know anything about 
the shape of raised coffins prior to 1600? Do we have any references as to 
their place in a feast? What do we know about raised coffins other than the 
recipes?
If one has trappes, why raise a free standing pie shell rather than form 
the shell inside or outside of the trappe ?


I don't have any of the sources to hand at the moment, working from memory, but..

"If," indeed..think period solutions to period problems! raised pies, as far as I can tell, were expedient to replace pans and dishes, although now they're often baked in pans. (keep in mind that not everybody had the resources  a court cook like Taillevent had. Since the royal kitchen always needed to feed lots of people, he would have had more pans on hand than most of his contemporaries) Using a trap is easier, but not necessary. and after all, why put hot food on a cold dish when you can send it out in  nice  filling pastry that won't suck the heat right out of it?

I had a very good collection of articles on food and travelling items published as a memoriam for a canadian archeologist/anthropologist- ca 1950's, which included a prewar study from a Polish peasant village on household distribution of cooking utensils. It found that most households had 2-5 pans of different sizes, small to medium, very small households (widows, etc) had just one or two small pots, and wealthy households and large farms with many workers had 8-12 pots, including 2-3 large ones and  a few special purpose pans.  occasions like holidays and weddings were community efforts: the host provided the food, but borrowed pots to cook it in. (loaning these pots was a social duty affirming communal relations and mutual dependency, as well as a custom enabling suitable display for a celebration, comparable to the borrowed lying-in gear gathered from various noble connections you will see in the Lisle letters.)

the thickness of the pastry and whether you need 
> support, it also becomes more stable when the pastry is filled with 
> something fairly solid, and a lid sealed in place...

Most modern raised pies, pork pies being the most common,  are pretty much a galantine, i.e., are baked with a dry filling, which is then sealed with a jellied stock poured in hot. (hence the required hole cut in the top pastry-you remove it, fill the pie with stock, then replace it) This does slow down spoilage, by sealing air away from the food, in the same way later pies are filled with butter, and of course, as pates and other cooked meats are sealed with lard in charcuteries. This in itself is a pretty good argument that it's a period practice- preservation methods developed pre-refrigeration are probably survivals from medieval times. (think how popular galantines were in high medieval and renaissance cookbooks, often using vinegar or wine as some part of the liquid.  they didn't NEED to be made in a fancy mold, they could just as easily be made in a coffyn.)  Pouring in liquid after baking also flavors and moistens the crust as well as the filling, similar technique to pouring
 the syrup on baklava -try eating a pork or chicken pie  without that jelly! Also, putting the lid on, sealed with water ( and flour, for choice) DOES help keep the crust from flopping before it's baked. 

This crust needs to be about 1/4 inch thick or more  to work.  Elizabeth David's English book had the best recipe i've used for a traditional raised pork pie with hot water crust- I manage to do it without a pan, and I am notoriously all thumbs.  (I  use her suggestion of forming it first on an upside down loaf pan, but it can be done freestyle...just not by me) 

the long oblong shape is very practical, since it yields many attractive cross sections (slices) with minimal crust, but  the filling isn't so heavy it breaks under its own weight, which were doubtless  concerns in period too.

Pies may have been molded, when possible, but most of what I've seen indicates that they are built up or raised: later recipes suggest a strip of paper attached around the upper part to stabilize it, and I have seen a "twist" of hay or straw suggested for the  purpose in other descriptions. Baking flour in a shell is sometimes suggested the same way we use beans to bake a blind-as for live birds in a pie- and there's no reason to suppose the flour was tossed afterward, since there are several uses for toasted flour. (and rice)

"some manuscript 
illuminations that show free-standing pastries: I'd guess (scale 
being what it is in such drawings) that a pie in a medieval feast 
might have been anywhere from maybe six inches high and ten inches 
across, to larger, looking vaguely like a hatbox with a slightly 
domed, but inset/flanged lid. "

some bird shaped pies were simply formed around the bird to be baked; this is especially good for a boned stuffed bird. the flange is the doubled crust that holds it together. I think I've seen this in illustrations -probably the same ones! It would be relatively easy to do with the pretty mosaic of arranged multiple meats for a galantine too, since the crust would keep a mound of meats together for baking, and the jelly stabilizes the whole thing  afterward. The construction is useful when you're dealing with the mixed game "bag"  result from a recreational hunt, which may not yield enough ducks or quail for a separate dish, but plenty, combined with the rabbits and some ham, chicken,  etc, for pies to supplement the roast. Raised pies lend themselve to decoration outside too- coats of arms, flowers, etc, can be cut out of leftover paste and laid on top and "glued" to the sides with egg, gilded or otherwise colored..Remember, too, these pies are served COLD, so are much more stable
 (and portable) than when hot, and, of course, can be baked and kept for use as needed, hence the preservation/sealing angle.


 Martino's live birds in a pie uses a trappe to form the shell 
and a filling of flour to hold the shape of the top crust. Why raise a 
coffin, rather then mold a shell?

Habit? even baking? lack of a suitable mold?

"aren't 
there menu references and recipes to Great Pies and Pies de Paris in 
fifteenth century England?  I was struck by the absence of recipes in earlier English 
sources, while Chiquart and Tallevent mention these pies, and give 
fairly detailed instructions for, at least, the fillings.

One could argue the 15th century English recipe for a Grete Pye is an 
evolution , or (and more likely) importation from the Continent."

cant check references on England's sumptuary laws, but the great pie was a fine way to get around restrictions on the number of dishes - conspicuous consumption being very popular,  especially for the merchant class primarily affected by them. 

 not entirely apropos, but possibly a survival of the towers and great pyes;:) Englands tradtional layered wedding cake was actually several different cakes, one to be eaten fresh, longer lasting cakes to send to absent friends, and the top a fruitcake to be shared on the first anniversary- lots of ceremony involved in deconstructing it-I think Eliza Acton had that recipe.

gisele




"all men are intrinsical rascals, and I am only sorry that not being a dog I can't bite them."   Lord Byron
		
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