[Sca-cooks] Re: coffyns

[Terry Decker]

> Bear (referring to the interesting conversation with adamantius) asked: 
> Do we know anything about
> the shape of raised coffins prior to 1600? Do we have any references as to
> their place in a feast? What do we know about raised coffins other than 
> the
> recipes?
> If one has trappes, why raise a free standing pie shell rather than form
> the shell inside or outside of the trappe ?
>
>
> I don't have any of the sources to hand at the moment, working from 
> memory, but..

My question is "what do we know?"  I'm asking for facts , not speculation. 
I have found that when I gather facts and examine them, they produce a very 
different picture from what "everyone knows."

>
> "If," indeed..think period solutions to period problems! raised pies, as 
> far as I can tell, were expedient to replace pans and dishes, although now 
> they're often baked in pans. (keep in mind that not everybody had the 
> resources  a court cook like Taillevent had. Since the royal kitchen 
> always needed to feed lots of people, he would have had more pans on hand 
> than most of his contemporaries) Using a trap is easier, but not 
> necessary. and after all, why put hot food on a cold dish when you can 
> send it out in  nice  filling pastry that won't suck the heat right out of 
> it?

Most of the recipes we reference are from noble households which had to feed 
lots of people.  They had considerable resources including well stocked 
kitchens and, often, well stocked bakeries.

As for the trappes, they are baking pans.  The pastries are baked in them. 
The pastry can either be removed from them or served in them.

>
> I had a very good collection of articles on food and travelling items 
> published as a memoriam for a canadian archeologist/anthropologist- ca 
> 1950's, which included a prewar study from a Polish peasant village on 
> household distribution of cooking utensils. It found that most households 
> had 2-5 pans of different sizes, small to medium, very small households 
> (widows, etc) had just one or two small pots, and wealthy households and 
> large farms with many workers had 8-12 pots, including 2-3 large ones and 
> a few special purpose pans.  occasions like holidays and weddings were 
> community efforts: the host provided the food, but borrowed pots to cook 
> it in. (loaning these pots was a social duty affirming communal relations 
> and mutual dependency, as well as a custom enabling suitable display for a 
> celebration, comparable to the borrowed lying-in gear gathered from 
> various noble connections you will see in the Lisle letters.)

Interesting, but of little import unless it can be demonstrated that peasant 
families in the High Middle Ages baked raised coffins.  The fact that raised 
coffins appear lower on the social scale in Late Renaissance and Early 
Modern does not necessarily support their use at those social levels in the 
Middle Ages.

>
>
>
> Martino's live birds in a pie uses a trappe to form the shell
> and a filling of flour to hold the shape of the top crust. Why raise a
> coffin, rather then mold a shell?
>
> Habit? even baking? lack of a suitable mold?

>From the the woodcuts I've seen baker's had the habit of using pans 
(trappes) for baking pastries.  The medieval heat mass oven produces an even 
heat matched only by a modern convection oven.  Possibly the lack of a 
suitable pan, but I want to see the evidence.  Professionals have and use 
professional tools, and the cooks and bakers of the Middle Ages were no 
exception.

>
> "aren't
> there menu references and recipes to Great Pies and Pies de Paris in
> fifteenth century England?  I was struck by the absence of recipes in 
> earlier English
> sources, while Chiquart and Tallevent mention these pies, and give
> fairly detailed instructions for, at least, the fillings.
>
> One could argue the 15th century English recipe for a Grete Pye is an
> evolution , or (and more likely) importation from the Continent."
>
> cant check references on England's sumptuary laws, but the great pie was a 
> fine way to get around restrictions on the number of dishes - conspicuous 
> consumption being very popular,  especially for the merchant class 
> primarily affected by them.
>
> not entirely apropos, but possibly a survival of the towers and great 
> pyes;:) Englands tradtional layered wedding cake was actually several 
> different cakes, one to be eaten fresh, longer lasting cakes to send to 
> absent friends, and the top a fruitcake to be shared on the first 
> anniversary- lots of ceremony involved in deconstructing it-I think Eliza 
> Acton had that recipe.
>
> gisele

This argument may have some merit.  I don't have a copy available, but if 
anyone can locate one, may I suggest:  Baldwin, F.E., Sumptuary Legislation 
and Personal Regulation in England, John Hopkins Press, 1926.

Bear