[Sca-cooks] Burger Battle

Stefan li Rous StefanliRous at austin.rr.com
Sun Jan 21 20:19:12 PST 2007

Susan wrote:

<<< Volker Bach wrote:

> If it originated in Persia, how do we get t Roman 'Isicia'?
> I'd suspect rather that once you have leftover meat and chop it,  
> you'll find
> out fairly soon that it can be made into balls, patties or  
> meatloaf. Asking
> who invented it makes as much sense as asking who invented pancakes.
     It is really quite simple. First of all the Roman's introduced
everything to all of Europe but in Spain at least the Vandals and the
Visigoths were barbarians who overthrew Spain and forgot all that. The
Arabs actually never invented anything but copied the best of all the
worlds they conquered so they used the Spanish weeds called asparagus
growing in wild in that country and reintroduced many other Roman
innovations. They wrote a lot so as hamburgers, they 'invented' them
when indeed our colleague found the hamburger seems to be documented in
Roman Isicia.  >>>

I think that "hamburger", "The hamburger" etc likely has been  
invented multiple times independently. On top of that is the problem  
of determining just what is and is not (a) hamburger. Is it just  
chopped meat of any kind? Or does it have to be ground? Does it have  
to be in a patty shape? Or does shape matter? Does it have to be  
chopped meat on a bun? or is sliced bread allowed? Or does it even  
have to include bread? If it has bread crumbs mixed in, does that  
disallow it by making it meatloaf instead of hamburger?

<<<    I am with you that hamburger could have been a cave man invention
but not leftovers until the 20th century when dentistry could prevent
tooth decay. >>>

Bzzzt. Tooth decay really appears to take off when sugar is  
introduced to a society. Even in societies using grinding stones for  
grain you can find ground down teeth, but much less dental decay.

<<<  One of the most ridiculous movies I saw in my life was
Henry VIII eating roast beef off a bone. Now tell me how is he going to
do that in the 16th Century when people had few teeth after the age  
of 20?  >>>

That's a blanket statement I have trouble believing without more  
evidence. For those with money, I would say it was more likely since  
they had the money to buy and use sugar.

I think I have some info to back up the claims on the teeth, but  
finding this book here in Chaos Manor may not be that easy. This  
particular book also concentrates on London finds but I imagine there  
are other books as well that cover other areas.

London Bodies: The Changing Shape of Londeners from Prehistoric Times  
to the Present Day
Werner, Alex
ISBN: 0-904818-91-8
Art Books Intl Ltd
April 1999

<<<    So my Spanish medieval recipes are chop. chop, chop, mince,  
mince once the animal is hung overnight to get rid of the evil  
spirits!  >>>

I wonder how much was chopped before the invention and use of  
mechanical meat grinders. Seems like a large amount of work. But then  
if you had a lot more money than most of the people in your society I  
guess you could get someone to do that for you.

As for hanging meat to get rid of evil spirits, in period they did  
hang and age meat for tenderness. My apologies if you were joking,  
I'm afraid I'm not totally sure if you were or not.

meat-aging-msg    (20K)  9/ 4/01    The aging of meat to tenderize it  
in period
                                        and today.

<<<    Who invented pancakes? Of course the Arabs cause they claim to be
the first to write that down! Catalina di Medicis only took them to
France cause the Spaniards got the recipe out of Al Andalus and took it
to their domains in Italy. The French invented nothing. Their best
recipes came from Persia via Cordoba of course! >>>

That gets us back to the question of what is and is not a pancake.  
Once I figure that out, perhaps I can add some of the information we  
talked about here previously into the appropriate Florilegium file.  

<<<    By the way I am told there are very bad feelings about Arab  
in the states right now. :-! ? >>>

Not particularly. There is some, but I think most bad feelings are  
directed toward ideologies and actions of individuals not the Arab  
peoples as a whole. Be careful of reading the statements of the  
current U.S. government as being the feelings of all, or even a  
majority of the people of this country. They certainly don't match my  
own. I have problems with the militant Moslems but at the same time,  
I would support a complete, absolute boycott/embargo/blockade of  
Israel until it withdraws from the lands stolen in the 1967 war. I  
doubt that, that opinion has much of a following in the U.S. either.  
But that is probably not a topic for this list.

<<< I hope you people understand that most
Spaniards have Arab blood because of the long occupation of those people
in Spain. They understand Arabs much better than any other European
country as well as Israel as they have a lot of Jewish blood as well.  

I'm not sure sharing common blood or culture creates understanding.  
Again, the Arabs and the Israelis are a good example.

<<< I have close ties with many and very fine friends from Northern  
Africa and
the Middle East who are better educated and more cultured than I. >>>

Unfortunately, I fear your friends are likely to be more at risk from  
the radical Moslems in their countries than I am of danger from them  
in mine.

<<< Being
able to call these people friends is a privilege for me and of course
thanks to their occupation in Al Andalus we are able to trace some of
the finest recipes in the world.  >>>

Yes. Treasure those relationships, treat those people as individuals  
and use your relationships to help everyone develop their  
understanding of culinary history.

THLord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra
    Mark S. Harris           Austin, Texas           
StefanliRous at austin.rr.com
**** See Stefan's Florilegium files at:  http://www.florilegium.org ****

More information about the Sca-cooks mailing list