[Sca-cooks] Clove defined and symbolism

[Huette von Ahrens]

I don't remember any previous discussion of the item in question.  If there had been, I would have been part of it and I would have disagreed vehemently.

The item in question is a bread roll, just as Dame Alys has mentioned.  I have been racking my brain for its name for several hours now, but it is alluding me at the moment.

Both Pieter Aertsen and his nephew, Joachim Beucklaer have used these bread rolls in several of their paintings.  Usually they are wrapped in cloth and placed in a basket.  

Unfortunately, my computer is not letting me do good URLs for these, so here is what I have to show you, since I cannot add attachments to this message.

http://bilddatenbank.khm.at/viewArtefact?id=33

Hopefully, this will show you a copy of Aertsen's Marktszene, painted somewhere between 1560/1565.

http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/b/beuckela/index.html

This is Joachim Beucklaer's web page on the Web Gallery of Art.  Go to two paintings, the first is ten paintings down, called Market Scene.  There is a basket with two of these rolls on the left side, just above the lady's arm.  The second is at the bottom, called Woman Selling Vegetables.  There are two baskets of these rolls on the right side of the painting, to the right of the man.

These three instances show that these cannot be butter and, to me, do not look like cheese.  I have seen rolls in my local bakery of a similar shape, but just cannot remember their name.  I am sure that the decoration was impressed on the roll before they were baked.

Huette  




--- On Mon, 4/5/10, Elise Fleming <alysk at ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> From: Elise Fleming <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Clove defined and symbolism
> To: "sca-cooks" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 12:06 PM
> Johnnae wrote:
> 
> >I was thinking the consensus was butter or cheese when
> we last >discussed the painting.
> 
> >But of course one time one sees butter, one time
> cheese, but I don't
> >see it as a wafer.
> 
> >Just to be contrary Food and Feasting in Art by Silvia
> Malaguzzi
> >(Getty 2008) has this painting on page 134 and there
> the description >reads:
> 
> >"The fish garnished with a carnation is a symbol of
> Christ. A fish is
> >a traditional emblem of Christ as sacrificial victim,
> and its symbolism >is emphasized here by the red
> flower."
> 
> >So is it a piece of fish that bears the marks of a
> press or griddle?
> 
> Blowing up the photo to 200%, I can't see that it looks
> like fish.  The shape is a bit too regular to be a
> fish, splayed and flattened.  Then there's the golden
> brown edges.  To me, that golden brown would
> indicate  something that might be baked, where the
> edges get nice and crispy. Also, the "designs" seem to be
> fairly well indented which would be odd on a piece of
> grilled fish.  Wouldn't a fish have to be pretty dry
> for such marks to be left on its flesh.  What about
> something made with flour - a thin bread or a wafer?? 
> The crispy brown edges would seem to preclude butter or
> cheese.
> 
> Alys K.
> -- Elise Fleming
> alysk at ix.netcom.com
> http://home.netcom.com/~alysk/
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