[Sca-cooks] Evidence of tomato eating in late 16th centuryItaly/Germany?

[Terry Decker]

>
>
> << Here's my $.02 on the subject:  Declaring something to be "period" is
> pointless without a place and time.>>
>
>
> It was my understanding that it was common knowledge that we are talking 
> late
> 16th century Italy and possibly late 16th century Germany.
>
> I regret very much that people who have been trying to provide textual 
> evidence
> pro or contra are being sort of bashed for dealing with the question.
>
> Even if there are only two lines in the herbal of Durante, Dodoens, 
> Mattioli and
> others, given the fact that herbals are specialiced on medical uses of 
> plants,
> mentioning culinary uses is not to be dismissed easily.
>

The initial message that touched this off was a post forwarded from another 
list which made no real caveats as to time and place.  The claim was "it's 
period," which in SCA parlance is "it was used someplace with European 
interaction between 500 and 1600 CE," often including the proviso "therefore 
I can justify it's use in any way I choose."  "Period" provides no 
time/locale reference, that late 16th Century Italy and/or German provides. 
The essence of Doc's complaint is the inaccuracy of "period."

The problem with the references in the herbals is the authors copied each 
other.  The earlier Mattioli (as referenced by Helewyse) provided only that 
the mature yellow tomato could be prepared in the same manner as eggplant. 
The description of how tomatoes were prepared that appears in the 1611 
German Mattioli (as referenced by Katherine) has essentially a tomato 
recipe.  Without determining the who and when of the addition, we have no 
idea of it's accuracy.  Did the editor observe the dish being made, did he 
simply copy a recipe he thought would work, or did he make it up off the top 
of hjis head?  If the editor is not working from direct observation by a 
direct correspondent or himself, how accurate is the statement?  Widespread, 
in this regard, does not equate with accurate.

Without ignoring the mentions in the herbals, I will point out that while we 
have observations of cultivation and use for a number of New World 
foodstuffs and even recipes, there is nothing like that for the tomato with 
the exception of Constanzo Felici, Del'insalata e piante che in qualunque 
moide vengono per ribe dell'homo, 1572, where the tomato is dismissed as 
looking better than it tastes.  Outside of the herbals, there are no recipes 
until 1692.  The modern tomato based pastaa sauce doesn't put in an 
appearance until Leonardi's L'Apicio moderna (1790).

Katherine pointed out that the later German versions of Mattioli seemed to 
say the tomato was a common plant in gardens.  That may be true, but that 
does not equal widespread culinary use.  Many edible plants are grown 
strictly as ornamentals.

My opinion is that tomatoes were eaten in Italy in the latter half of the 
16th Century, but the evidence does not support widespread or general use.

>
>
> << No amount of research is going to make tomatoes period for 14th century
> France, or 13th century England, etc. >>
>
>
> It is my understanding that noone ever was making such a claim.
>

Based on too many years of people using the term "period" in this manner.

>
> << - Doc (who, if you couldn't tell, is really getting to hate the term) 
>  >>
>
>
> See my new subject line. I hope you feel better.
>
>
> E.

Thank you.

Bear