[Sca-cooks] Free redactions of Roman recipes
Susi Mayer
susanne.mayer5 at chello.at
Sun Apr 13 08:34:07 PDT 2014
Katharina, again way behind on her digests,....
for those who have not yet found the project Gutenberg e-book editions (can
also be read on teh coputer or printed,..)
There you can find the latin text of Apicius as well as the translation by
Joseph Dommers Vehling:
"Apicii librorum X qui dicuntur De re coquinaria quae extant by Apicius"
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/16439
"Cookery and Dining in Imperial Rome by Apicius"
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/29728
But in the virtual cookery bookshelf
http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Cookery_%28Bookshelf%29
Yuo can also find such works as:
The Closet of Sir Kenelm Digby Knight Opened by Kenelm Digby
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/16441
The Forme of Cury: A Roll of Ancient English Cookery Compiled, about A.D.
1390
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/8102
Old Cookery Books and Ancient Cuisine by William Carew Hazlitt
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/12293
(did not have time to read that one yet)
The Queen-like Closet or Rich Cabinet by Hannah Woolley
Title: The Queen-like Closet or Rich Cabinet Stored With All Manner Of Rare
Receipts For Preserving, Candying And Cookery. Very Pleasant And Beneficial
To All Ingenious Persons Of The Female Sex
allthough quite late for SCA with a print date of 1672, it is intresting
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/14377
Le viandier de Taillevent by Taillevent (french)
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/26567
Il libro della cucina del sec. XIV by Anonymous (italian)
Editor: Francesco Zambrini
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/33954
A Queens Delight
The Art of Preserving, Conserving and Candying. As also, A right
Knowledge of making Perfumes, and Distilling the most
Excellent
Waters.
Author: Anonymous, printed in 1671
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/15019
Chocolate: or, An Indian Drinke by Antonio Colmenero de Ledesma
Author: Antonio Colmenero de Ledesma
Translator: James Wadsworth printed 1652
wich are only the ones jumping out at you
Kind Regards
Katharina
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 16:52:22 -0500
From: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>
To: SCA-Cooks maillist SCA-Cooks <SCA-Cooks at Ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Free redactions of Roman recipes
Message-ID: <E2439E86-3678-4EB2-9680-AB0F2951FFA1 at austin.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Chimene gave us a quick view of cheap publication of some of Apicius'
recipes.
Thanks, Chimene. If anyone wants to review this publication further and give
us an idea of how accurate the translations and/or redactions are, I would
appreciate it.
We've reviewed and discussed various Apicius translations in the past. Each
seems to have its pro and cons. I have been saving this commentary in this
Florilegium file and am always interested in more. I will add these two
messages to this file:
cb-rv-Apicius-msg (66K) 12/ 1/06 Reviews of cookbooks having Apicius
recipes.
http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-BOOKS/cb-rv-Apicius-msg.html
Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous at gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris
**** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 17:58:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Free redactions of Roman recipes
Message-ID: <60e9d.6c56cc8e.407084f2 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Don't see Celtnet on there:
http://www.celtnet.org.uk/recipes/apicius-coquinaria.php
Not sure exactly where all these come from, but worth a browse, I think.
Jim Chevallier
_www.chezjim.com_ (http://www.chezjim.com/)
Early Medieval French wine
http://leslefts.blogspot.com/2014/03/early-medieval-french-wine.html
In a message dated 4/4/2014 2:52:27 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
StefanliRous at austin.rr.com writes:
We've reviewed and discussed various Apicius translations in the past.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 17:12:40 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: <lilinah at earthlink.net>, "Cooks within the SCA"
<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Free redactions of Roman recipes
Message-ID: <95A798E2CF0D420A95382BBDD8A0578C at Vishnu>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
It should be pointed out that the "Fall of Rome" is generally taken to be
September 4, 476 CE, when Odoacer deposed Romulus Augustulus. Technically
Odoacer was ruling in the name of Julius Nespos, until said "emperor" was
offed in 480.
While Apicius is 1st Century CE, there are excerpts transcribed in the 5th
or 6th Century, two copies made in the 9th Century, a number of 15th Century
copies of the Vatican manuscript and at least 4 printed editions between
1498 and 1550. So I would say the long lived Apician cookbook was around
through the full range of SCA period. Whether and how it influenced cooking
is an open question.
Bear
-----Original Message-----
Nothing is too early for the SCA, as there is no official starting date. The
consensual date is "The Fall of Rome". But since Rome fell down quite a few
times before dying, even that consensual date is ambiguous.
Urtatim
who did a 26-dish Greco-Roman feast more than a few years ago
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 18:35:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Free redactions of Roman recipes
Message-ID: <620b8.754f323d.40708d9d at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Just to be clear, the gourmet Apicius was first century, but he is not
believed to have had anything to do with the work, which is generally dated
to
the fourth or fifth century and may have been compiled by several hands.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apicius
"Apicius" seems to have become a kind of general term for a gourmet just as
Amphitryon became a French term for a host. This is why I always refer to
Pseudo-Apicius; it is a little too easy to blur the lines between the
historical figure and the (unknown) author or authors of the work.
Jim Chevallier
_www.chezjim.com_ (http://www.chezjim.com/)
Early Medieval French wine
http://leslefts.blogspot.com/2014/03/early-medieval-french-wine.html
In a message dated 4/4/2014 3:12:45 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
t.d.decker at att.net writes:
While Apicius is 1st Century CE, there are excerpts transcribed in the 5th
or 6th Century
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 19:45:34 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Free redactions of Roman recipes
Message-ID: <00EE0D83E155484FABB551642507F392 at Vishnu>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Actually, that is a Wiki simplification Edward Brandt, who is the unquoted
authority for this information, did the analysis of the text in the late
1920's and came to the conclusion that the the work was a compilation of a
number of earlier sources including Apuleius and Palladius rewritten in
common Latin for a broader audience and general use. Brandt believed that
the more luxurious recipes in the collection may represent an earlier
version of Apicius. There is no way to definitively state whether or not
the recipes of M. Gavius Apicius are in the compilation.
M. Gavius Apicius is known to have existed in the 1st Century from the works
of such authors as Pliny, Seneca, Tacitus and Athenaeus. He was known to
have written texts on cooking and is tied to a number of kitchen inventions
by Apion in a lost text entitled, On the Luxury of Apicius. According to
Odo of Cluny, Apicius wrote a text on cooking and a text on sauces. St.
Jerome, who was contemporary of or predated the compiler of Apicius used the
phrase "sauces of Apicius" in reference to Jovinian. And Isidore of Seville
refers to Apicius as the author of the first cookbook and as a person whose
gluttony killed him.
Flower and Rosenbaum point out that in the available texts, recipes for food
and sauces are combined, suggesting that there are earlier texts that
combined Apicius's works on cooking and sauces and that one of these was
incorporated in the compilation. They also note that Vinidarius's excerpts
from the 5th or 6th Centuries are from a different source than the
compilation.
So the whole question is not as cut and dried as Wikipedia makes it seem.
Bear
-----Original Message-----
Just to be clear, the gourmet Apicius was first century, but he is not
believed to have had anything to do with the work, which is generally dated
to
the fourth or fifth century and may have been compiled by several hands.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apicius
"Apicius" seems to have become a kind of general term for a gourmet just as
Pseudo-Apicius; it is a little too easy to blur the lines between the
historical figure and the (unknown) author or authors of the work.
Jim Chevallier
_www.chezjim.com_ (http://www.chezjim.com/)
Early Medieval French wine
http://leslefts.blogspot.com/2014/03/early-medieval-french-wine.html
In a message dated 4/4/2014 3:12:45 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
t.d.decker at att.net writes:
While Apicius is 1st Century CE, there are excerpts transcribed in the 5th
or 6th Century
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------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 21:36:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Free redactions of Roman recipes
Message-ID: <668f0.7cb7bcba.4070b813 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Perhaps it would be better then to refer to Dalby:
_http://books.google.com/books?id=KdR4jRJCxEsC&lpg=PA17&dq=inauthor%3Adalby%
20apicius&pg=PA17#v=onepage&q&f=false_
(http://books.google.com/books?id=KdR4jRJCxEsC&lpg=PA17&dq=inauthor:dalby%20apicius&pg=PA17#v=onepage&q&f=false)
The gist of his view is that the surviving collection might just contain a
bit of the historical Apicius. But the dating for the whole is generally
given as the fourth to fifth century.
Here is what Laurioux says, in a study of the work's life in the Middle
Ages:
" "The history of De re coquinaria then indeed belongs to the Middle Ages,
and it does so fully...the text itself, such as it has come to us, was not
set before the fifth century and probably continued to evolve during the
very early Middle Ages".
18
Cuisiner ? l'Antique : Apicius au Moyen Age
Bruno Laurioux lien M?di?vales lien Year 1994 lien Volume
13 lien Issue 26 lien pp. 17-38
http://persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/medi_0751-2708_1994_num_1
3_26_1294
The one thing I think we can say with certainty is that this is not a work
by the historical Apicius, even if it possibly may contain traces of his
writing.
Vinidarius of course is generally recognized as using different material,
even if his effort is typically attached to the earlier work.
Otherwise, I hope it's clear that saying that Roman cooking remained
important into the Middle Ages does not in the least mean people were using
Pseudo-Apicius' recipes to make it. Probably transmission was primarily
oral, as
it presumably was before the only extant Roman cookbook was written.
Jim Chevallier
_www.chezjim.com_ (http://www.chezjim.com/)
Early Medieval French wine
http://leslefts.blogspot.com/2014/03/early-medieval-french-wine.html
In a message dated 4/4/2014 5:45:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
t.d.decker at att.net writes:
that
combined Apicius's works on cooking and sauces and that one of these was
incorporated in the compilation. They also note that Vinidarius's
excerpts
from the 5th or 6th Centuries are from a different source than the
compilation.
So the whole question is not as cut and dried as Wikipedia makes it seem.
------------------------------
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