[Sca-cooks] Water in medieval Spai
Susan Lord
lordhunt at gmail.com
Wed Jun 22 17:01:58 PDT 2016
I have no record of boiling water. Picard advised against drinking water from certain rivers on the Way of St James for the variations in mineral content. The water was not bad but it was top much reajusting for pilgrims stomachs, We do the the same today between bottled water and wine.
> El 22-06-2016, a las 16:05, sca-cooks-request at lists.ansteorra.org escribió:
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> 1. Re: Proceedings of the Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery
> (The Eloquent Page)
> 2. Medieval wine (was: I Tried a Medieval Diet...)
> (Galefridus Peregrinus)
> 3. Re: I Tried a Medieval Diet, and also watered wine
> (Richenda du Jardin)
> 4. Re: Medieval wine (was: I Tried a Medieval Diet...)
> (JIMCHEVAL at aol.com)
> 5. OoP New Chocolate Processing Technique (Sam Wallace)
> 6. Re: Medieval wine (was: I Tried a Medieval Diet...) (Volker Bach)
> 7. Re: I Tried a Medieval Diet, and also watered wine
> (Solveig Throndardottir)
> 8. Re: I Tried a Medieval Diet, and also watered wine
> (Richenda du Jardin)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 15:45:37 -0400
> From: The Eloquent Page <books at TheEloquentPage.com>
> To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Proceedings of the Oxford Symposium on Food
> and Cookery
> Message-ID: <00fc6c71-4b20-2331-8189-4e8cd0b3f63c at TheEloquentPage.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> I have downloaded all the free Proceedings from the Oxford Symposium
> website. If you haven't seen them yet, they are all interesting. These
> may not stay free, so if you are interested download them now.
>
> Katherine
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 20:29:02 -0400
> From: Galefridus Peregrinus <galefridus at optimum.net>
> To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Medieval wine (was: I Tried a Medieval Diet...)
> Message-ID: <6A2CE6DE-11D6-485D-A0AD-36E1D239CC90 at optimum.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Several Tacuinum Sanitatis manuscripts (Italy, mostly 14th and 15th centuries) as well the original Arabic Taqwim al-Sihha (Baghdad, 11th century) explicitly mention old wine. It therefore seems to me that medieval folks were indeed familiar with aged wine.
>
> -- Galefridus Peregrinus
>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 09:44:17 -0400
>> From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
>> To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
>> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] I Tried a Medieval Diet, and also watered
>> wine
>> Message-ID: <6e7ef.4a4f4032.449a9eb1 at aol.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>>
>> It is important to note however that medieval wine didn't age, possibly
>> because barrels (still far from perfected) were now used instead of amphorae.
>> The Romans had vintage wine, but the concept disappeared for centuries.
>> Also, like the beer, medieval wine in general wasn't very strong.
>>
>> Jim Chevallier
>> _www.chezjim.com_ (http://www.chezjim.com/)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 18:59:36 -0700
> From: Richenda du Jardin <richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com>
> To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] I Tried a Medieval Diet, and also watered
> wine
> Message-ID: <5769F108.6000508 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> Actually, I doubt that most water was boiled before use. Fuel for fires
> was expensive so you didn't use it for something that didn't immediately
> have a use - food, heat, laundry, etc. In addition, we don't find
> instructions to boil water before using it for parts of recipes - but we
> have accounts of people buying and selling water that was presumably
> potable.
>
> Richenda
>
>> On 6/20/2016 10:17 PM, Terry Decker wrote:
>> Not all water was equally bad. Remember the instructions to "take
>> fair water?" As long as you don't have seriously toxic water, the
>> alcohol in wine should handle much of the bacteria. And there is the
>> fact that people tend to develop immunity to local bacteria. I also
>> suspect water was often boiled before use.
>>
>> That aside, aged wine would tend to oxidize and thicken. Cutting it
>> with water will thin it, making it less cloying and brighten the
>> taste. In particular, I'm thinking of the Roman Falernian which was
>> aged in amphorae as much as 20 years. It was also one of the highest
>> alcohol wines being noted as the only wine that would burn.
>>
>> Bear
>>
>>
>>
>> Beer was safer than water because you had to boil the water to make
>> the beer, which killed a lot of the possible nasties.
>>
>> But how is watering wine safe? Is the alcoholic level of wine really
>> high enough to kill off the same possible nasties?
>>
>> Like small beer, watered wine might prevent you from getting drunk,
>> but would it be safe to drink?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Stefan
>>
>>
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 23:16:49 -0400
> From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
> To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Medieval wine (was: I Tried a Medieval
> Diet...)
> Message-ID: <749fea.594369b5.449b5d21 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> In the East (the source for both those), quite possible (though I'd like to
> see the context; "old wine" is not necessarily the same as vintage wine).
> I doubt you'll find any similar references that actually originate in
> Europe.
>
> "The fact that medieval wine was drunk within the year of its birth is not
> at all remarkable.... We attach importance to the quality of age. Medieval
> man did not. He was little interested in age and he made no real effort to
> improve his wines by ageing them."
> p 257
> William Younger, "Gods, Men and Wine"
>
> Others who have studied the subject say essentially the same thing.
>
> ?Wine ?. could not be stored long. Six months old was probably the peak
> of a medieval wine's quality. It was unusual for wine to keep as long as
> four years; most of it was gone within a year, either soured to vinegar or
> consumed at table.? (Johnston); ?medieval wine was not as strong as wines are
> today. ... people consumed wine immediately after production, directly out
> of wooden casks, ... resulting in a weaker concoction ?(Vess); ?Medieval
> wine kept badly and had to be consumed within the year ? which did not fail
> to impose a seasonal rhythm on trade, without changing the prices, the
> buying and selling methods" (Duby).
>
> Johnston. Ruth A, All Things Medieval: An Encyclopedia of the Medieval
> World 2011
>
> Vess, Deborah, "Monastic Moonshine: Alcohol in the Middle Ages", Religion
> & Alcohol: Sobering Thoughts,ed Charles Kevin Robertson 2004
>
>
> Duby, Georges, ?Une synth?se : le vignoble fran?ais [Roger Dion, Histoire
> de la Vigne et du Vin en France des origines au XIXe si?cle]?, Annales.
> ?conomies, Soci?t?s, Civilisations V16 1961
>
> http://leslefts.blogspot.com/2014/03/early-medieval-french-wine.html
>
>
> Jim Chevallier
> www.chezjim.com
>
> FRENCH BREAD HISTORY:Seventeenth century bread
> http://leslefts.blogspot.com/2016/02/french-food-history-seventeenth-century
> .html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 6/21/2016 5:29:07 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> galefridus at optimum.net writes:
> Several Tacuinum Sanitatis manuscripts (Italy, mostly 14th and 15th
> centuries) as well the original Arabic Taqwim al-Sihha (Baghdad, 11th century)
> explicitly mention old wine. It therefore seems to me that medieval folks
> were indeed familiar with aged wine.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 00:19:44 -0400
> From: Sam Wallace <guillaumedep at gmail.com>
> To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
> Subject: [Sca-cooks] OoP New Chocolate Processing Technique
> Message-ID:
> <CAOZ4SBm9WOS+jSdbstxXDyWMZjj1Jbumkg6ENLcXN-UYd503rA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> This! This is what science is for! Scientists at Temple University have
> come up with a way to reduce the amount of fats in chocolate while
> maintaining texture and (purportedly) increasing its richness. I am willing
> to give it a go.
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/21/low_fat_chocolate_electric_fields
>
> Guillaume
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 06:18:56 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
> To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Medieval wine (was: I Tried a Medieval
> Diet...)
> Message-ID:
> <1888749285.12331817.1466576336604.JavaMail.yahoo at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> It would be interesting to see whether any writer defined what 'old wine' meant in this context. I doubt they were thinking of the kind of age modern vintages routinely get.
>
> Italy and the Arab world would have used pottery vessels to store wine, like the Romans did, so they would have been able to age it the same way. In the fifteenth century, we have evidence from northern Germany (England, too, IIRC, though I'm not sure) that wine was aged in casks for several years. It seems that only high quality wine was chosen for this, though, and it's quite possible that the ability to age well was part of what distinguished high-quality wine from common.
>
> IS
>
> Giano
>
>
>
>
> Galefridus Peregrinus <galefridus at optimum.net> schrieb am 2:29 Mittwoch, 22.Juni 2016:
>
>
> Several Tacuinum Sanitatis manuscripts (Italy, mostly 14th and 15th centuries) as well the original Arabic Taqwim al-Sihha (Baghdad, 11th century) explicitly mention old wine. It therefore seems to me that medieval folks were indeed familiar with aged wine.
>
> -- Galefridus Peregrinus
>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 09:44:17 -0400
>> From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
>> To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
>> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] I Tried a Medieval Diet, and also watered
>> ? ? wine
>> Message-ID: <6e7ef.4a4f4032.449a9eb1 at aol.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>>
>> It is important to note however that medieval wine didn't age, possibly?
>> because barrels (still far from perfected) were now used instead of amphorae.?
>> The Romans had vintage wine, but the concept disappeared for centuries.
>> Also,? like the beer, medieval wine in general wasn't very strong.
>>
>> Jim? Chevallier
>> _www.chezjim.com_ (http://www.chezjim.com/)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sca-cooks mailing list
> Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
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>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 13:10:17 -0400
> From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand at acm.org>
> To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] I Tried a Medieval Diet, and also watered
> wine
> Message-ID: <7A1910A6-1530-4131-BF21-CCF7D0C5B3A2 at acm.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Noble Cooks!
>
>> Actually, I doubt that most water was boiled before use. Fuel for fires was expensive so you didn't use it for something that didn't immediately have a use - food, heat, laundry, etc. In addition, we don't find instructions to boil water before using it for parts of recipes - but we have accounts of people buying and selling water that was presumably potable.
>
> I very much agree about the expense of fuel. However, I would discount the use for laundry. I suspect that a lot of laundry was done with cold water. I have helped wash dishes with cold water and rice husks in modern Japan. Basically, you would not burn fuel without good and sufficient cause.
>
> Your Humble Servant
> Solveig Throndardottir
> Amateur Scholar
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 12:05:16 -0700
> From: Richenda du Jardin <richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com>
> To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] I Tried a Medieval Diet, and also watered
> wine
> Message-ID:
> <CAHBPFx4QEdhE10vobiR2V4vVQ+U-vr_0TMAS48K4FGGm-zmU3g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> We have picture ofkaundry being stirred in huge kettles over fires, which
> is why I mentioned it.
>
> Richenda
>
> On Wednesday, June 22, 2016, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand at acm.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Noble Cooks!
>>
>>> Actually, I doubt that most water was boiled before use. Fuel for fires
>> was expensive so you didn't use it for something that didn't immediately
>> have a use - food, heat, laundry, etc. In addition, we don't find
>> instructions to boil water before using it for parts of recipes - but we
>> have accounts of people buying and selling water that was presumably
>> potable.
>>
>> I very much agree about the expense of fuel. However, I would discount the
>> use for laundry. I suspect that a lot of laundry was done with cold water.
>> I have helped wash dishes with cold water and rice husks in modern Japan.
>> Basically, you would not burn fuel without good and sufficient cause.
>>
>> Your Humble Servant
>> Solveig Throndardottir
>> Amateur Scholar
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sca-cooks mailing list
>> Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org <javascript:;>
>> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org
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>
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